Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[LBSCR Times]

Ok hypothetical question here.....one of our shortest jobs is Stalybridge to Manchester, takes about 15 mins. If Northern were to dedicate a new train to that service only, do you think it should have a toilet or more seats instead of a toilet?

In reply to my comment, not your hypothetical question, a lot of regulars travelling longer distances will not travel on the 313's because there are no toilets. At weekends, the 313's do not operate to / from Portsmouth, but when they do, a few people have been caught out, and have to alight en-route, and then resume their journey up to 30 minutes later.

 

[Starmill]

I rather think it is relevant to the thread - as I was reading a piece on toilet facilities on Class 319 units, which my posts will eventually incorporate.

Im not sure what you mean by " manipulating people " but again stress you dont need to reply to my posts.

I recall very well your opinion of people who post at 2am and a word beginning with P that you used to describe me for doing it.

 

[Moonshot]

In reply to my comment, not your hypothetical question, a lot of regulars travelling longer distances will not travel on the 313's because there are no toilets. At weekends, the 313's do not operate to / from Portsmouth, but when they do, a few people have been caught out, and have to alight en-route, and then resume their journey up to 30 minutes later.

Ok ...but what would your answer be to my hypothetical question?

 

[Starmill]

I'd argue that 3+2 seating is fine on 20m MkIII-based stock, though perhaps 2+2 would be better in the central section of each car to allow more standing space in the peaks.
Tables I'd suggest is a no-no unless it's those 'half-tables' as on the 318s/320s- perhaps ones that can fold away like those in the wheelchair areas of 158s & 185s. Reliable and audible PA systems and PIS screens will be required post-2020, so that's a given. In 3+2 areas, some airline seating would be okay in the '2's but I'd avoid it on the 3-seat side due to the difficulty some people would have in getting to the window seat, especially when it's busy! Taking the 333s as an example, all seats on the '3' side are facing bays, whereas the '2' side is a mixture of airline & facing seats.

You're right; 3 airline seats in a row is too much, see the pacer or 150s with them for how difficult to get in to/out of they are and 3 people wouldn't want to sit that snug with each other anyway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You're right; 3 airline seats in a row is too much, see the pacer or 150s with them for how difficult to get in to/out of they are and 3 people wouldn't want to sit that snug with each other anyway.

It's not quite so bad on the low-backed examples, but they have their own set of issues!

 

[Moonshot]

I'd argue that 3+2 seating is fine on 20m MkIII-based stock, though perhaps 2+2 would be better in the central section of each car to allow more standing space in the peaks.
Tables I'd suggest is a no-no unless it's those 'half-tables' as on the 318s/320s- perhaps ones that can fold away like those in the wheelchair areas of 158s & 185s. Reliable and audible PA systems and PIS screens will be required post-2020, so that's a given. In 3+2 areas, some airline seating would be okay in the '2's but I'd avoid it on the 3-seat side due to the difficulty some people would have in getting to the window seat, especially when it's busy! Taking the 333s as an example, all seats on the '3' side are facing bays, whereas the '2' side is a mixture of airline & facing seats.

Returning to Moonshot's hypothetical question, I imagine that if a new unit was to be dedicated to Stalybridge shuttles it probably wouldn't have toilets fitted, as there'd simply be little need for them- Metrolink's M5000s don't have toilets despite being used for fairly long journeys to places like Bury and Altrincham! In addition, any business case for a small dedicated fleet would require costs to be trimmed at every opportunity!
Of course such a move would require a complete overhaul of the way resources are managed on the railways though, hence why the posed question was hypothetical.

With the 319s though, toilets are and will continue to be provided- whether a new, accessible toilet would replace the current one or be an addition to it will be down to the ROSCOs and TOCs to decide.

Thats a fair answer.......and as you point out, trams dont have them. Of course you are quite right , the rolling stock resources would never match that scenario currently. However , it does go to show you that when Metrolink was designed, it was designed so as to maximise space ( ie no loos )......and as you point out, a long journey could be the best part of 55 mins if one was travelling from one end of the network to the other.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not without changing the window glass they won't.

How big a problem is this where the Class 319 units currently operate ?

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'd argue that 3+2 seating is fine on 20m MkIII-based stock, though perhaps 2+2 would be better in the central section of each car to allow more standing space in the peaks.
Tables I'd suggest is a no-no unless it's those 'half-tables' as on the 318s/320s- perhaps ones that can fold away like those in the wheelchair areas of 158s & 185s. Reliable and audible PA systems and PIS screens will be required post-2020, so that's a given. In 3+2 areas, some airline seating would be okay in the '2's but I'd avoid it on the 3-seat side due to the difficulty some people would have in getting to the window seat, especially when it's busy! Taking the 333s as an example, all seats on the '3' side are facing bays, whereas the '2' side is a mixture of airline & facing seats.

I'd worry that perhaps the current 319/3 seating layout, allowing for 305 seated passengers, might be overkill for some routes? I don't know the average seating capacity for Class 142 Pacers, but the highest I've found is 121. Presuming 2 x 142s are 242, that's quite a number of additional seats, and the standing room is a lot more than the 142s as well.
But then again, a DDA compliant toilet (the 319/3s currently only have 2 small toilets) will most likely be installed so that'll be less seats available.

I defer to your opinion, as I've no idea what seating arrangements Northern services would be best suited to.

Some subclasses of 377s have a pretty nifty little side table for 3+3 seating, as seen in use here . Is that similar to the ones used on the 318/320s?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How big a problem is this where the Class 319 units currently operate ?

The windows are the worst feature of the 319s on Thameslink.
They are badly scratched, and to prevent further damage have had a plastic film applied, which blocks the light and distorts the view.
I think some Northern 150s have had the same treatment.

 

[Clip]

You're right; 3 airline seats in a row is too much, see the pacer or 150s with them for how difficult to get in to/out of they are and 3 people wouldn't want to sit that snug with each other anyway.

But this is what the South East has been using for years and still do - what makes you so special that shedloads of money has to be spent ripping out the interior and reducing seating capacity just because you want 2+2 with tables? Nothing would be the answer to that yet you go on like the South East is spoiled.


You want to be lucky you dont have the awful 378s where you have to sit on a pathetic excuse for a seat, no window view because your looking at someone else BUT apparently according to you the SE gets all the best new trains.

crock of ****e.

 

[GatwickDepress]

But this is what the South East has been using for years and still do - what makes you so special that shedloads of money has to be spent ripping out the interior and reducing seating capacity just because you want 2+2 with tables? Nothing would be the answer to that yet you go on like the South East is spoiled.


You want to be lucky you dont have the awful 378s where you have to sit on a pathetic excuse for a seat, no window view because your looking at someone else BUT apparently according to you the SE gets all the best new trains.

crock of ****e.

Should've had a 377/6 styled-interiors and 5 car lengths from the very start. An hour on them from Watford Junction to Clapham Junction (changing at Willesden Junction, fact fans) is painful when there's interesting things to look at out the windows!

 

[Class377]

The windows are the worst feature of the 319s on Thameslink.
They are badly scratched, and to prevent further damage have had a plastic film applied, which blocks the light and distorts the view.
I think some Northern 150s have had the same treatment.

I would assume a lot of this comes from the fact they've been working the same route for 25 years, on a through-the-night route where A LOT of people will be going to/from London and getting off their head on booze! Would a deep clean replace most of the windows anyway?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would assume a lot of this comes from the fact they've been working the same route for 25 years, on a through-the-night route where A LOT of people will be going to/from London and getting off their head on booze! Would a deep clean replace most of the windows anyway?

The matter of a deep clean has already been mentioned as being a matter that had in fact already been done in the past on these units. I do feel that at least that clear and un-vandalised windows should be a part of the units that Northern Rail will eventually receive in the first small batch of these units.

Who can ever forget the totally mindless large swathe of external graffiti that had been European-applied on one of the ten Class 350/4 units that recently was delivered to First TPE ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who can ever forget the totally mindless large swathe of external graffiti that had been European-applied on one of the ten Class 350/4 units that recently was delivered to First TPE ?

You mean the official wavy toothpaste livery recently applied by TPE?
Talk about garish...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You mean the official wavy toothpaste livery recently applied by TPE?
Talk about garish...

Now then, you rapscallion, you know full-well that I specifically stated "European-applied" graffiti that was applied by a member of the brain-cell devoid vandal brigade, when they all wore the boring grey-undercoat livery...

Personally speaking, I would have preferred to see all 10 of the Class 350/4 carrying a livery of "Improved Engine Green".

 

[Emyr]

Maybe we should use the graffiti samples as auditions for the next Northern franchise livery, some of it can be quite nice to look at once you get beyond narcissistic tagging.

 

[Tetchytyke]

what makes you so special that shedloads of money has to be spent ripping out the interior and reducing seating capacity just because you want 2+2 with tables? Nothing would be the answer to that yet you go on like the South East is spoiled.

I was on one of the 319s last week where, er, the interior had been "ripped out" and replaced with 2+2 seats and tables in standard class.

One advantage of not touching them will be the declassified first class section, I suppose. That was always the best bit of the 308s.

 

[Beveridges]

I drink 6+litres of water every day. I cannot believe someone possibly suggested no one cares if a train has no toilets! I use train toilets on short and long journeys, all the time, every time.

 

[Moonshot]

I drink 6+litres of water every day. I cannot believe someone possibly suggested no one cares if a train has no toilets! I use train toilets on short and long journeys, all the time, every time.

I take it then that you dont use buses trams or taxis for that reason?

 

[deltic08]

But this is what the South East has been using for years and still do - what makes you so special that shedloads of money has to be spent ripping out the interior and reducing seating capacity just because you want 2+2 with tables? Nothing would be the answer to that yet you go on like the South East is spoiled.


You want to be lucky you dont have the awful 378s where you have to sit on a pathetic excuse for a seat, no window view because your looking at someone else BUT apparently according to you the SE gets all the best new trains.

crock of ****e.

Is the North getting the blame for 378s as well? Unbelievable. I would like to see a seating arrangement similar to 170s on the Glasgow-Edinburgh route with mixed 2+2 seating in standard class and a small number of 2+1 First class. Many railcard holders I know book First class because the fare is similar to non railcard standard class where First class is available. On my local line, many familiar First class commuter faces disappeared when standard class only Pacers replaced heritage DMUs. If 185s have First class, why not 319s as they will operate on same routes?

Unless hopper window frames are replaced, air conditioning is superfluous on journeys of less than an hour.

 

[AM9]

Is the North getting the blame for 378s as well? Unbelievable. I would like to see a seating arrangement similar to 170s on the Glasgow-Edinburgh route with mixed 2+2 seating in standard class and a small number of 2+1 First class. Many railcard holders I know book First class because the fare is similar to non railcard standard class where First class is available. On my local line, many familiar First class commuter faces disappeared when standard class only Pacers replaced heritage DMUs. If 185s have First class, why not 319s as they will operate on same routes?

Unless hopper window frames are replaced, air conditioning is superfluous on journeys of less than an hour.

Whatever some say about 378s, the air conditioning works well and as high density passenger carriers, they are fit for purpose. The average passenger journey time must be well under one hour, maybe 20 minutes!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Whatever some say about 378s, the air conditioning works well and as high density passenger carriers, they are fit for purpose. The average passenger journey time must be well under one hour, maybe 20 minutes!

I travel on 378's fairly regularly and although I don't find them particularly comfortable or the fact they don't have toilets, they get me from A to B. This does not bother me on a 20-30min journey.

Perhaps then to save all arguments....just provide an empty steel tube on wheels (which somebody suggested earlier) and bring your own fold-up seat. That way you'll always get a seat!

And bring a bottle or bucket if you're caught short

 

[Aldaniti]

I drink 6+litres of water every day. I cannot believe someone possibly suggested no one cares if a train has no toilets! I use train toilets on short and long journeys, all the time, every time.

I agree. Every train should have a toilet, without exception.

I avoid Northern Rail like the plague, its a level of squalor which I have no wish to expose myself to. Improvements to the motor car comfort seem to get better and better year on year, whilst trains seem to get harder seats, less room and lesser facilities as the years go by.

If the 319's receive comfortable 2+2 seating, a reasonable amount of leg room and maintain a couple of decent toilets, I would imagine it won't be too long before they attract more business. If that happens I for one would consider using local rail services again.

 

[Moonshot]

I agree. Every train should have a toilet, without exception.

I avoid Northern Rail like the plague, its a level of squalor which I have no wish to expose myself to. Improvements to the motor car comfort seem to get better and better year on year, whilst trains seem to get harder seats, less room and lesser facilities as the years go by.

If the 319's receive comfortable 2+2 seating, a reasonable amount of leg room and maintain a couple of decent toilets, I would imagine it won't be too long before they attract more business. If that happens I for one would consider using local rail services again.

How do passengers use the loo on a heavily loaded service if you are a bit of a distance away from the facility?

 

[Aldaniti]

How do passengers use the loo on a heavily loaded service if you are a bit of a distance away from the facility?

The same way that the guard would get to the front of the train in an emergency if all the doors were jammed.

You might like to play the arse with others but not with me sonny.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How do passengers use the loo on a heavily loaded service if you are a bit of a distance away from the facility?

Maybe try and go before boarding the train. This is what one does in London suburbia when many trains don't have toilets, e.g. 455's that do short and long distance journeys. It does annoy me however when many station toilets are closed.

 

[Moonshot]

The same way that the guard would get to the front of the train in an emergency if all the doors were jammed.

You might like to play the arse with others but not with me sonny.

Which really didnt answer the question .....

 

[Tetchytyke]

I agree. Every train should have a toilet, without exception.

I avoid Northern Rail like the plague, its a level of squalor which I have no wish to expose myself to. Improvements to the motor car comfort seem to get better and better year on year, whilst trains seem to get harder seats, less room and lesser facilities as the years go by.

Your car has a toilet?

Commuter trains don't need toilets, plenty of commuter trains in London don't have them (nor do Merseyrail) and people manage to get on with it.

Anyway, why are we talking about toilets? 319s have toilets, two of them, though they will need to be made accessible before 2018.

 

[Aldaniti]

Your car has a toilet?

Commuter trains don't need toilets, plenty of commuter trains in London don't have them (nor do Merseyrail) and people manage to get on with it.

Anyway, why are we talking about toilets? 319s have toilets, two of them, though they will need to be made accessible before 2018.

There's one big difference. If for whatever reason I desperately need to go I can get out of a car and go behind the nearest bush.

 

[northwichcat]

Commuter trains don't need toilets, plenty of commuter trains in London don't have them (nor do Merseyrail) and people manage to get on with it.

How many London area commuter lines have an hourly service with no toilets at any intermediate stations?

With Merseyrail everywhere except the Ellesmere Port branch has a standard pattern frequency of at least a train every 15 minutes and the main interchanges have station toilets.