Northern refusing to refund tickets for strike dates

[northwichcat]

This is a message I received from Northern advising on their refund policy for tickets purchased for strike dates.

* You have to book a new ticket for the same stations for a different date and time.
* Once the new tickets are booked, that’s when you can get a refund on the original booking without any admin fee.
* The new ticket should be equal or higher by comparing the old ticket.
* All these changes have to be done before the train departs.
* Once you book the new ticket please send us the new ticket transaction ID. So that we can validate the new reference and proceed accordingly.

I see the delivery method is an electronic tickets. Please do not scan or activate the unused tickets before making any changes.

And yes I am going to send them a link to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, showing passengers have 28 days from the date they intended to travel and there's no requirement to buy a new ticket first.

 

[Moonpie]

Have they stated this is specific to strike day refunds?

It looks like their general guidelines changing a journey by booking a new one and then getting a refund on an advance ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

Have they stated this is specific to strike day refunds?

Yes. Should have perhaps included the opening sentence of "As you are looking for free fee change of journey due to strikes. You can made change of journey with the below conditions."

 

[Moonpie]

Ah, that fits with what I said above they have given you the guidelines for change of journey... not a refund.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah, that fits with what I said above they have given you the guidelines for change of journey... not a refund.

But why does it matter how much the new ticket costs or when the refund is requested, if they're required to refund ones for cancelled services without an admin fee anyway?

 

[skyhigh]

But why does it matter how much the new ticket costs or when the refund is requested, if they're required to refund ones for cancelled services without an admin fee anyway?

Did you ask them to change your journey or for a refund?

 

[northwichcat]

Did you ask them to change your journey or for a refund?

I asked them to change the journey. And they've effectively said they can't do it unless you purchase a new ticket first and also request a refund before you travel. If my original ticket is for a train not operating, why does it matter when the refund is requested? There's basically no special provision for a change of journey, despite what Northern's website says. I'm legally entitled to a full refund for a cancelled train and I can buy new tickets whenever I choose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I asked them to change the journey. And they've effectively said they can't do it unless you purchase a new ticket first and also request a refund before you travel. If my original ticket is for a train not operating, why does it matter when the refund is requested? There's basically no special provision for a change of journey, despite what Northern's website says. I'm legally entitled to a full refund for a cancelled train and I can buy new tickets whenever I choose.

You only have that right once the train is confirmed as cancelled, though. It probably isn't yet.

 

[northwichcat]

You only have that right once the train is confirmed as cancelled, though. It probably isn't yet.

I do have an email from Northern saying the train my ticket is booked for will no longer operate. Their website also states they will be running no services on 30 September and 4 October.

 

[Moonpie]

To be clear... you haven't yet asked for a refund.

Your message to them has asked for a change of journey, what they have sent in response is the change of journey process for an advance ticket. Under normal circumstances advance tickets are not refundable ( exception for disruption) so this is a fairly standard process.

Although uts unlikely, strikes can be called off and services reinstalled.

Did you specifically say in your request that its a change of journey for a strike day and give the date.

I would respond and request a refund and say you no longer wish to travel.

 

[northwichcat]

Did you specifically say in your request that its a change of journey for a strike day and give the date.

Yes. I wasn't happy with the initial reply and replied quoting from Northern's dedicated strike page.

I would respond and request a refund and say you no longer wish to travel.

I do want to travel. But Northern won't be running trains on the date I wanted to travel and they want to sell me a full priced ticket for changing to an alternative suitable date.

 

[skyhigh]

But Northern won't be running trains on the date I wanted to travel and they want to sell me a full priced ticket for changing to an alternative suitable date.

In which case you don't want a refund as it will dissolve the contract and waive your rights under PRO so I don't see why you're pushing for one.

 

[scrapy]

I do want to travel. But Northern won't be running trains on the date I wanted to travel and they want to sell me a full priced ticket for changing to an alternative suitable date.

What journey do you want to make?

What date did you originally have tickets for?

What alternative date do you want to now travel on instead?

 

[northwichcat]

What journey do you want to make?

What date did you originally have tickets for?

What alternative date do you want to now travel on instead?

They're Advances for Sat 30th, Northern have said they will be running no services on that date and I've also received an email saying the train I booked has been cancelled. I asked about changing them to an alternative Saturday. However, I found their response very biazzare - effectively saying they won't change the change the date but they'll issue for a refund for the tickets for cancelled trains once I buy a new ticket of higher or equal value.

In which case you don't want a refund as it will dissolve the contract and waive your rights under PRO so I don't see why you're pushing for one.

I'm not pushing. They're telling me it's the only option but also telling me I need to buy new tickets of higher/equal value to be eligible for a fee-free refund!

 

[ServerHoster]

I also did ask them how I could change my journey via Twitter and they said, "you can use it on the day before or after"... well, what if I want to go another day!

Did you contact Northern themselves or their Trainline support? (trainline email ends in something like "trainsfares.com")
Last year I contacted them for a travel voucher refund under book with confidence (booked via LNR website) and they absolutely refused, saying that you can only change date/time! Then I contacted WMT themselves and they gave me the travel voucher.

 

[skyhigh]

They're telling me it's the only option but also telling me I need to buy new tickets of higher/equal value to be eligible for a fee-free refund!

They've given you the instructions for a fee free change as that's what you asked for.

They are not refusing to refund or telling you that you need to buy a new ticket first.

If you ask for a refund due to the strike you'll be given it without fuss.

 

[northwichcat]

I also did ask them how I could change my journey via Twitter and they said, "you can use it on the day before or after"... well, what if I want to go another day!

Did you contact Northern themselves or their Trainline support? (trainline email ends in something like "trainsfares.com")
Last year I contacted them for a travel voucher refund under book with confidence (booked via LNR website) and they absolutely refused, saying that you can only change date/time! Then I contacted WMT themselves and they gave me the travel voucher.

Northern on Twitter said to email the ticket support team - sales.support.northern@trainsfares.co.uk and their strike pages has that email address on it when referring to tickets purchased on their website or in their app.

 

[skyhigh]

Northern on Twitter said to email the ticket support team - sales.support.northern@trainsfares.co.uk and their strike pages has that email address on it when referring to tickets purchased on their website or in their app.

You've said you asked them to change your ticket. Send an email to that address asking for a refund due to the strike action if that's what you want and you shouldn't have a problem.

 

[gray1404]

You've said you asked them to change your ticket. Send an email to that address asking for a refund due to the strike action if that's what you want and you shouldn't have a problem.

Do this. If you still have a problem complain to Northern customer services.

If you still have a problem do a chargeback via your bank

 

[fandroid]

I think the question that might be in the OP's mind is whether they have a right to a right to a free new ticket for travel on a reasonable future date and time. That would be relatively simple to manage if the original ticket had been for a walk on fare, but is rather more complicated for an Advance ticket.

 

[Watershed]

I think the question that might be in the OP's mind is whether they have a right to a right to a free new ticket for travel on a reasonable future date and time. That would be relatively simple to manage if the original ticket had been for a walk on fare, but is rather more complicated for an Advance ticket.

They do - but as you say, exercising that right is made difficult for an Advance ticket as many retailers don't conform with the requirement to issue a new ticket for an alternative date of the passenger's convenience free of charge.

 

[CyrusWuff]

They do - but as you say, exercising that right is made difficult for an Advance ticket as many retailers don't conform with the requirement to issue a new ticket for an alternative date of the passenger's convenience free of charge.

There are a couple of factors in play here:

• Industry briefings regarding the Passenger Rights and Obligations have generally been non-existent, with the overall industry response being to replace the National Rail Conditions of Carriage with the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
• Most TOCs treat Article 16 as only applying once the passenger arrives at the departure point, so don't accept advance requests for rerouting or travel at a later date.
  
  This has been clarified in the 2021 update, which came into force in EU member states on 7th June 2023.

 

[island]

This has been clarified in the 2021 update, which came into force in EU member states on 7th June 2023.

…though does not, of course, apply in the UK.

 

[scrapy]

They're Advances for Sat 30th, Northern have said they will be running no services on that date and I've also received an email saying the train I booked has been cancelled. I asked about changing them to an alternative Saturday.

It seems like you have the option of using those tickets any day up to Tuesday 3rd. They cannot be changed to a later Saturday. The other option is to get a fee free refund from your retailer and rebook. There is no entitlement to move your ticket to a later Saturday although you could ask your retailer (if this was not Northern). The info given by Northern does seem like gobbledegook but no they can't be changed.

The other option is to attempt to travel on the booked date and contact Northern when you arrive at the station stating your rights under PRO. It is likely you will get nowhere on the day so if you still choose to travel you would have to do so at your own expense (taxi or bus) then attempt to claim this back, you would need to be prepared to do this via the small claims court if needed as the rail ombudsman is useless.
Sorry if this is not the information you want to receive but is the likely outcome.

 

[Watershed]

Industry briefings regarding the Passenger Rights and Obligations have generally been non-existent, with the overall industry response being to replace the National Rail Conditions of Carriage with the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Quite - the usual rudderless response, expecting parties across the industry to come up with their own procedures for redating tickets, for example.

Most TOCs treat Article 16 as only applying once the passenger arrives at the departure point, so don't accept advance requests for rerouting or travel at a later date.

Any such interpretation is clearly fanciful; it is well established that EU261 rights (the equivalent for aviation, with very similar wording in these respects) apply at the point a flight is cancelled. The wording in the PRO also states "shall immediately have the choice".

It seems to me that TOCs simply don't regard the PRO as something they need to worry about complying with.

This has been clarified in the 2021 update, which came into force in EU member states on 7th June 2023.

In almost all respects, I'd say the 2021 change to the PRO was negative.

It introduced the "exceptional circumstances" exemption to delay compensation that train operators had been lobbying for. They had long bleated on about how unfair this was compared to other modes of transport - even though the amount of compensation payable is tiny and proportional to the fare paid, in stark contrast to EU261 compensation.

Furthermore, although it formalised the entitlement to claim back re-routing expenses, it added a "waiting period" before this can be done, almost legitimising the position you note above of helping passengers only at departure time.

The good news is that this change didn't apply in the UK, as the PRO is retained EU law and must be modified by Parliament for any changes to come into effect. The bad news is that the government has made noises about scrapping or rewriting most, if not all, EU Regulations and this might well be a casualty of that.