Northern refusing to refund bus fare

[startingaparty]

Hello,

I had to make an essential journey from Chorley to Manchester to ensure my mother got to Manchester Airport okay. Unfortunately, her flight was on the Sunday that Storm Ciara hit.

Anyway, Northern cancelled trains from Chorley to Manchester so we had no choice but to get a Stagecoach bus from Chorley to Bolton and then get a Diamond bus from Bolton to Manchester city centre. This cost £10 for both tickets altogether.

I hold a season ticket between Chorley and Manchester. Anyway, I put forward my case and said as no alternative rail replacement transport was arranged we had no choice but to take a bus, as they were still running fine.

Northern came back with the below:

Thank you for contacting Northern. I'm sorry to learn that your planned journey was disrupted and I would like to offer my sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Due to the anticipated weather and the potential for disruption, Northern, along with other Train Operating Companies, had to cancel many services and issued an advisory 'Do Not Travel' notice to customers. Whilst it is understood that you considered the need to travel, as we had put out the advisory notice, I'm afraid that we cannot be held responsible for any additional costs you incurred due to the disruption to our services.

I appreciate that this is not the answer you had anticipated and I'm sorry for any disappointment this may cause.

What should I reply in response?

 

[Red Robin]

Hello,

I had to make an essential journey from Chorley to Manchester to ensure my mother got to Manchester Airport okay. Unfortunately, her flight was on the Sunday that Storm Ciara hit.

Anyway, Northern cancelled trains from Chorley to Manchester so we had no choice but to get a Stagecoach bus from Chorley to Bolton and then get a Diamond bus from Bolton to Manchester city centre. This cost £10 for both tickets altogether.

I hold a season ticket between Chorley and Manchester. Anyway, I put forward my case and said as no alternative rail replacement transport was arranged we had no choice but to take a bus, as they were still running fine.

Northern came back with the below:



What should I reply in response?

I'd reply saying that you purchased your ticket before the "do not travel" notice was put out and that you should be compensated based on the advertised timetable at that time (I assume you purchased your ticket before the advice not to travel was given)

I'd also say that you were made aware that amended timetables were running on several routes so assumed that the services scheduled to run would in fact run as they were still showing up on the Saturday evening prior to your journey and indeed on the Sunday itself (although they were gradually all being cancelled). Explain that they failed to provide an alternative service so having already paid for your ticket, after several cancellations you decided to catch the bus as these were running. You could say that they should have arranged rail replacement bus services to operate in place of the cancelled trains or arranged for ticket acceptance with local bus services- as they failed to provide any form of service you were forced to make alternative arrangements at personal expense which you kept to a minimum (you could have got a taxi which would have been considerably more expensive) and expect to be reimbursed for as they failed to provide the service which you paid for with reasonable care (mention the consumer rights act)

 

[exile]

I'd reply saying that you purchased your ticket before the "do not travel" notice was put out and that you should be compensated based on the advertised timetable at that time (I assume you purchased your ticket before the advice not to travel was given)

I'd also say that you were made aware that amended timetables were running on several routes so assumed that the services scheduled to run would in fact run as they were still showing up on the Saturday evening prior to your journey and indeed on the Sunday itself (although they were gradually all being cancelled). Explain that they failed to provide an alternative service so having already paid for your ticket, after several cancellations you decided to catch the bus as these were running. You could say that they should have arranged rail replacement bus services to operate in place of the cancelled trains or arranged for ticket acceptance with local bus services- as they failed to provide any form of service you were forced to make alternative arrangements at personal expense which you kept to a minimum (you could have got a taxi which would have been considerably more expensive) and expect to be reimbursed for as they failed to provide the service which you paid for with reasonable care (mention the consumer rights act)

The writer of the post didn't buy a ticket on the day - he had a SEASON ticket. The TOC advised against travelling due to the storm. I'm not sure they should be obliged to pay any compensation in the circumstances. It's not the same scenario as actually starting a journey and the TOC failing to get you to the final destination.

 

[sheff1]

As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel, you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation as outlined in Northern's Passenger Charter. Depending on the length of the delay in reaching your destination you will be entitled to 1 or more complimentary tickets to travel on Northern which will still be valid after the transfer this weekend. If you plan things well the value of these tickets will exceed the cost of your bus tickets.

Of course, if you have no desire to travel with Northern outside the area covered by your season ticket complimentary tickets will be of no use. In that case the amount of compensation you are entitled may be less than the cost of your bus tickets.

Note Northern do state in their Passenger Charter " If we have published an alternative timetable for the journey you made, we will compensate you based on that. An alternative timetable means a new timetable which we upload to industry systems before 10pm on the day before you travel.". However, there have been clear statements on here that that would not stand up under consumer legislation and the Passenger Charter also states "Our Delay Repay scheme does not affect or limit any rights you have as a consumer under, for example, The Consumer Rights Act 2015, to a different level of compensation, including consequential loss, where Northern is at fault. If you believe that it does apply to your journey please contact our customer experience centre on 0800 200 6060. We always consider each claim made to us on its individual merits."

 

[crablab]

The TOC advised against travelling due to the storm. I'm not sure they should be obliged to pay any compensation in the circumstances. It's not the same scenario as actually starting a journey and the TOC failing to get you to the final destination.

NRCoT would consider them to be the same situation (ie. it's a cancelled train). The "do not travel" notice doesn't actually mean anything compensation wise (although you obviously would be wise to avoid travelling unless absolutely necessary) unless an ammended timetable was in place, in which case the claim would be assessed against that.

Unfortunately this seems to be a case of the ToC trying to skirt their responsibilities :/

 

[221129]

As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel, you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation as outlined in Northern's Passenger Charter. Depending on the length of the delay in reaching your destination you will be entitled to 1 or more complimentary tickets to travel on Northern which will still be valid after the transfer this weekend. If you plan things well the value of these tickets will exceed the cost of your bus tickets.

Of course, if you have no desire to travel with Northern outside the area covered by your season ticket complimentary tickets will be of no use. In that case the amount of compensation you are entitled may be less than the cost of your bus tickets.

Note Northern do state in their Passenger Charter " If we have published an alternative timetable for the journey you made, we will compensate you based on that. An alternative timetable means a new timetable which we upload to industry systems before 10pm on the day before you travel.". However, there have been clear statements on here that that would not stand up under consumer legislation and the Passenger Charter also states "Our Delay Repay scheme does not affect or limit any rights you have as a consumer under, for example, The Consumer Rights Act 2015, to a different level of compensation, including consequential loss, where Northern is at fault. If you believe that it does apply to your journey please contact our customer experience centre on 0800 200 6060. We always consider each claim made to us on its individual merits."

Although you cannot claim delay repay for a journey you didnt make by rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although you cannot claim delay repay for a journey you didnt make by rail.

"by a means provided by the railway". It DOES apply to RRBs and railway provided taxis.

 

[Belperpete]

I am not surprised that the OP didn't get his bus fare refunded, but it is surely not right that he has got no compensation whatsoever? The TOCs put out advice that people with ordinary tickets could travel the day before or after, but were strangely quite about those with seasons. I suspect that as it was a weekend they thought not too many with seasons would be inconvenienced, whereas if they announced compensation everybody would claim.

The OP bought a season for x day's travel, and the TOC did not provide one of those days. It used to be the case that in such situations the season (or next one) would be extended by a day. Under current arrangements, isn't the OP entitled to compensation based on one return fare?

 

[exile]

Of course the rules for delay repay apply (in this case, for season tickets). But the OP isn't about that, it's referring to consequential loss due to using an alternative form of transport. .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course the rules for delay repay apply (in this case, for season tickets). But the OP isn't about that, it's referring to consequential loss due to using an alternative form of transport. .

Do they? The OP didn't undertake a rail journey, he took the bus instead.

Arguably what applies is whatever would apply for abandonment with a season ticket, not Delay Repay (is there such a provision?). For a normal ticket it would be a full refund of the unused ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Do they? The OP didn't undertake a rail journey, he took the bus instead.

Arguably what applies is whatever would apply for abandonment with a season ticket, not Delay Repay (is there such a provision?). For a normal ticket it would be a full refund of the unused ticket.

And for a season it would, if anything, be something based on a daily usage rate - a maximum of 20% of the total price of the (weekly) season.

 

[Starmill]

Although you cannot claim delay repay for a journey you didnt make by rail.

You've just made that up.

"by a means provided by the railway". It DOES apply to RRBs and railway provided taxis.

It clearly applies to whatever you choose to do if you are given no means of transport despite having paid for it. This is one of the reasons I usually seek guidance from the staff if there are no trains about what to do, and then follow their advice, which can be quoted when it comes to time to claim compensation for the delay. The company should have provided rail replacement transport to these passengers, not left them to sort it out for themselves. The fact that nothing was provided obviously does not invalidate a delay repay claim (although refunding the ticket obviously does). ​

 

[Starmill]

I am not surprised that the OP didn't get his bus fare refunded, but it is surely not right that he has got no compensation whatsoever?

There can be no possible doubt that the OP is entitled to a refund. Of course, the value of the refund for just one day on the season ticket is likely to be quite slim!

They could choose to make a compensation claim instead of claiming a refund. This could take the form of a claim for compensation for the delay or for consequential losses. The strongest case is for a refund, then for compensation for a delay, and then for consequential losses. Each option in this scenario is likely to yield a higher amount of money being returned. If it were me I would have been tempted to claim the refund and leave it at that, as the right to this this is undeniable.

If I were the OP, I would have offered the company an extra day on my season ticket in lieu of refund would be fine. I think that the chances of the company agreeing to that might be quite low, however.

If the company will not agree to pay, make a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman. ​

 

[Darandio]

What is less clear here is whether the OP is trying to claim for both bus tickets and not just their own.

 

[Starmill]

What is less clear here is whether the OP is trying to claim for both bus tickets and not just their own.

I doubt £10 is enough to pay for tickets for two passengers for that journey.

 

[Darandio]

I doubt £10 is enough to pay for tickets for two passengers for that journey.

From the OP

This cost £10 for both tickets altogether.

 

[Starmill]

From the OP

Sounds like they bought two bus tickets per person? I agree there's confusion, however.

 

[jrh2254]

Same thing happened to me when a train broke down on approach to Hull station. Managed to limp into one of the local stations and it was absolute chaos and confusion. Hull trains gave out no information so passengers waited for about 30 mins and then some went to get a local bus into Hull. I tried to claim but as I recall the excuse was that they did arrange some road transport that turned up many hours later by which time the football match would have finished(I only managed the 2nd half anyway!). Hull trains gave a full refund on the tickets as I was delayed over 2 hours each way. They ignored my claim for around a £5 bus fare and I did not follow it up.

 

[Trackman]

Sounds like they bought two bus tickets per person? I agree there's confusion, however.

Diamond day saver Bolton-Manchester is £5 so I imagine Chorley-Bolton was some kind of £5 Stagecoach day saver, so two tickets £10.