Northern refusing to excess

[thenorthern]

This morning I got on a Northern train at an ustaffed station. I bought a ticket from the ticket vending machine but accidentally bought a single rather than a return.

I tried the help button on the machine but no luck. When the train I spoke to the guard and mentioned I would need my ticket excessing and he said that was fine. He then said I could not get the ticket excessed and tried to sell me a new return ticket with no refund. He said refund and excess are not applicable on my ticket.

Who is right in this situation?

 

[transportphoto]

Which ticket have you purchased?

Internal guidance says the following but it may be that Northern have locked their on board ticket issuing systems down preventing the guard issuing this excess.

Changing a Single to a Return
Charge a new Single ticket for the return leg, as if no ticket was held.
It is permitted to charge an excess fare to upgrade a Single ticket into a Return (but not into London Day Travelcards), provided the excess fare is paid before departure. If no ticket office facilities are available, it must be done at the earliest possible opportunity, but before the validity of the Single has expired, or in the case of Advance tickets before the departure time of the first reserved train. View more information on changing Advance Singles.
Charge the difference between the price of the Single ticket and the price of the appropriate Return ticket, bearing in mind the train on which the Single ticket is used with regard to time restrictions applicable to the Return.

 

[thenorthern]

Which ticket have you purchased?

Internal guidance says the following but it may be that Northern have locked their on board ticket issuing systems down preventing the guard issuing this excess.

Off peak Single.

 

[AlterEgo]

The major problem is there is no strict contractual right between you and the train company to an excess of this type.

 

[thenorthern]

The major problem is there is no strict contractual right between you and the train company to an excess of this type.

I spoke to the staff at Preston in the end and got my ticket exchanged.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The major problem is there is no strict contractual right between you and the train company to an excess of this type.

So why under excess on ticketing software is there a 'change ticket type' option? It really should have been very simple to change CDS to CDR via excess (or OPS/OPR ticket type).

Unsure what justification Northern would have to not allow a guard to complete such a basic transaction

 

[AlterEgo]

So why under excess on ticketing software is there a 'change ticket type' option?

Because it can be done for the customer. The industry allows all sorts of things to happen by introducing mechanisms for it to happen. (Eg: Authority to Travel) but that isn't the same as the customer having the contractual right to demand it. It's not in the NRCoT.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So why under excess on ticketing software is there a 'change ticket type' option? It really should have been very simple to change CDS to CDR via excess (or OPS/OPR ticket type).

Because a time-restricted ticket can be excessed to a less restrictive ticket to allow travel at a restricted time.

Unsure what justification Northern would have to not allow a guard to complete such a basic transaction

The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement only permits Excess Fares to be issued in the following circumstances:

• To travel via a different route than the one you're entitled to use
• To travel at a different time or on a different day than you're entitled to travel
• To terminate or break and resume your journey at a station where you wouldn't be entitled to do so
• To use a better class of accommodation
• To travel beyond the station to which the fare paid entitles you to do so, but only where you couldn't pay the difference before boarding
• To start your journey at a station on the permitted route for the fare paid, where the fare paid doesn't allow this.

There is no right to excess a Single to a Return under the TSA.

Whilst Train Operators may do so in the name of customer service rather than processing a refund and reissue, staff guidance is that it has to be done at the Ticket Office before boarding, and certainly before the Single has expired. If you board at a staffed station without obtaining the excess, a new Single ticket should be sold for the return leg.

Another possibility is that the Ticket Issuing System Northern are using doesn't have the ability to Excess a Single to a Return, given it's not an accreditation requirement.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Because a time-restricted ticket can be excessed to a less restrictive ticket to allow travel at a restricted time.

The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement only permits Excess Fares to be issued in the following circumstances:

• To travel via a different route than the one you're entitled to use
• To travel at a different time or on a different day than you're entitled to travel
• To terminate or break and resume your journey at a station where you wouldn't be entitled to do so
• To use a better class of accommodation
• To travel beyond the station to which the fare paid entitles you to do so, but only where you couldn't pay the difference before boarding
• To start your journey at a station on the permitted route for the fare paid, where the fare paid doesn't allow this.

There is no right to excess a Single to a Return under the TSA.

Whilst Train Operators may do so in the name of customer service rather than processing a refund and reissue, staff guidance is that it has to be done at the Ticket Office before boarding, and certainly before the Single has expired. If you board at a staffed station without obtaining the excess, a new Single ticket should be sold for the return leg.

Another possibility is that the Ticket Issuing System Northern are using doesn't have the ability to Excess a Single to a Return, given it's not an accreditation requirement.

Fair enough, thanks for the detailed response. I guess I've always done it because the software we have specifically allows it, and it's a customer friendly way to work.

 

[Kite159]

Another reason could be that the guard forgot how to do the excess between a single & return and didn't have the excess screen on 'both' (leaving it on 'outward' where return fares won't show up if trying to excess from a single).

(That's assuming the ticket system used by Northern is similar to SWR)

 

[thenorthern]

Another reason could be that the guard forgot how to do the excess between a single & return and didn't have the excess screen on 'both' (leaving it on 'outward' where return fares won't show up if trying to excess from a single).

(That's assuming the ticket system used by Northern is similar to SWR)

The guard said that excess tickets could only be issued if it was the same type of ticket sold. So for example if I had bought a single from Blackpool South to Preston I could have then bought an excess to go to Lancaster but I could not get an excess to get a resturn rather than a single.

I explained he was wrong as I have bought an excess many times. He tried to sell me a full return but not refund the original single. I said I would discuss it with the staff at Preston. He said they would tell him the same as he had told me. I said I would leave that for the staff at Preston to decide. He said I was wrong and I said I will contact Northern to check, he said I was wrong and walked off. I did contact Northern on Twitter and they said I would have to buy a second single and claim the difference back.

As I say the staff at Preston excessed my ticket no issue. It does seem a bit odd that the guard tried to sell me a return for the journey, given I already had a valid ticket for the journey I was making I didn't need two. Also given a return ticket is more expensive I don't understand why the thought I would want to pay more money for my journey back than I had to.

 

[janb]

I can't speak for Fujitsu STAR mobile that Northern guards use, but for Fujitsu STAR desktop there is no built in "easy" way of excessing a single to a return.

Skilled operators in STAR desktop will know the workaround method (selecting the return you want, changing its price to the single price, and excessing it back to the return if that makes sense), or how to construct a manual excess fare but I don't know if STAR mobile offers comparable, greater or lesser options than this.

 

[NCC-1701]

From the guards perspective they get shown how to excess a ticket once at the end of 13 weeks classroom training before they begin 3 months depot training, then approx. 3 months (maybe more if they have a heavy route card) of road learning before they even work a train unaided and sell a ticket…they genuinely may have forgotten how to do it.

Or on the other hand Northerns stopping patterns are ridiculous with stops 2-3 minutes apart, tickets are the lowest priority for the guard they may not have had enough time to excess.

 

[Krokodil]

I can't speak for Fujitsu STAR mobile that Northern guards use, but for Fujitsu STAR desktop there is no built in "easy" way of excessing a single to a return.

Skilled operators in STAR desktop will know the workaround method (selecting the return you want, changing its price to the single price, and excessing it back to the return if that makes sense), or how to construct a manual excess fare but I don't know if STAR mobile offers comparable, greater or lesser options than this.

If Northern's STAR Mobile is the same as TfW's STAR Mobile then "Single to Return" should be pretty straightforward. However a lot of staff won't feel confident that they know what they're doing with excesses, they rarely issue them and training is patchy.

 

[Undiscovered]

From the systems I use, can change up a single to a return. Straightforward process.

However, the difference is such a small amount that my system/card reader won't accept the payment. If the customer doesn't have cash, then we're at a bit of an impasse.

And with it, usually, being such a small amount, i look petty for insisting they pay.
So where do you go?

 

[Krokodil]

However, the difference is such a small amount that my system/card reader won't accept the payment. If the customer doesn't have cash, then we're at a bit of an impasse.

That's rotten, the ones I used to use would happily accept a card payment of one penny if the need arose.

 

[Undiscovered]

That's rotten, the ones I used to use would happily accept a card payment of one penny if the need arose.

To be fair, if I'm feeling particularly moved (rarely), I have zero fared it, or put the 10p in out of my float.