Northern Rail to hand back 153's

[yorksrob]

According to 'Rail Magazine', Northern is to hand back its 153 fleet at the same time as it's Pacers. This is supposedly because new EMU's and cascaded sprinters from Scotrail will cover all of Northern's rolling stock needs.

I have to say, this sounds like a bad idea, and I'm highly sceptical that the new and cascaded trains will be able to both replace Pacers and 153's and cater for growth.

As an example, I was travelling on a Whitby service today that was full and standing (yes - in the middle of winter) from before Battersby. This is clearly an example of a route which needs more capacity, yet it's hard to imagine it getting three carriages rather than two from the replacements and cascades. 153's would be ideal for strengthening services such as these.

This sounds like a cost cutting measure, nothing more.

 

[D365]

Handing back the Class 153s was always part of the plan. If/when additional sprinter-type units are required, there's 22 of the TPE Class 185s and the current GA DMU fleet going spare. I can't see many of the Class 153s being modified at all.

 

[Great_Western]

My money is still on these being converted back to 155's and being used to displace ATW's 150's down to the valley lines so the pacers can go. I dont think there will be sufficient capacity on the network to scrap 153's for many years yet

 

[yorksrob]

Handing back the Class 153s was always part of the plan. If/when additional sprinter-type units are required, there's 22 of the TPE Class 185s and the current GA DMU fleet going spare. I can't see many of the Class 153s being modified at all.

I agree that the 153's are unlikely to be modified, however I would have thought that the better option would be to permanently couple them with some of the 15x units.

We have services on the Hallam line which struggle with 3 carriage 144's and 2 carriage 150's. Are we seriously expecting all of these to get higher end sprinters ? I doubt it personally.

 

[northwichcat]

If Rail said exactly what you stated they are wrong. The incoming stock will be:
- 18 x 2 car 150s
- 2 x 3 car 150s (and they'll create another 16 x 3 car sets from reforming 2 car sets which will be used on Yorkshire services.)
- 5 x 156s
- 8 x 158s
- 16 x 3 car 170s (which will be used on Leeds-Southport and Leeds-Harrogate services)
- 25 x 2 car 195s
- 30 x 3 car 195s
- 31 x 3 car 331s
- 12 x 4 car 331s
- 16 x 2 car 170s or equivalents - yet to be secured.

Outgoing stock will be:
- 79 x 142s
- 13 x 2 car 144s
- 10 x 3 car 144s (which are the same length as a 2 car 155, 156 or 158)
- 18 x 1 car 153s (one should go to EMT this autumn along with the transfer of Barton Humber to EMT.)
- 4? x loaned 3 car 185s
- 17 x 3 car 323s
- 3 x 4 car 321s
- 5 x 4 car 322s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting - so that'll mean Ormskirk-Preston not only getting increased to hourly, but also with two units, meaning a significant increase in capacity. Any planned initiatives to try to fill them?

 

[yorksrob]

If Rail said exactly what you stated they are wrong. The incoming stock will be:
- 18 x 2 car 150s
- 2 x 3 car 150s (and they'll create another 16 x 3 car sets from reforming 2 car sets which will be used on Yorkshire services.)
- 5 x 156s
- 8 x 158s
- 16 x 3 car 170s
- 25 x 2 car 195s
- 30 x 3 car 195s
- 31 x 3 car 331s
- 12 x 4 car 331s
- 16 x 2 car 170s or equivalents - yet to be secured.

Outgoing stock will be:
- 79 x 142s
- 13 x 2 car 144s
- 10 x 3 car 144s (which are the same length as a 2 car 155, 156 or 158)
- 18 x 1 car 153s (one should go to EMT this autumn along with the transfer of Barton Humber to EMT.)
- 4? x loaned 3 car 185s
- 17 x 3 car 323s
- 3 x 4 car 321s
- 5 x 4 car 322s

What does that add up to carriage wise ?

 

[D365]

We have services on the Hallam line which struggle with 3 carriage 144's and 2 carriage 150's. Are we seriously expecting all of these to get higher end sprinters ? I doubt it personally.

I thought that was going to become one of the Northern Connect routes as an extension of the Retford service?

 

[northwichcat]

What does that add up to carriage wise ?

The outgoing carriages vary in length from 15.5m to 23.0m while the incoming carriages vary in length from 19.8m to 23.8m so giving two totals of carriages would give a misleading figure if you want to know how much extra capacity they'll be.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought that was going to become one of the Northern Connect routes as an extension of the Retford service?

One of the 2 semi-fasts per hour will extend to Lincoln and be a Connect service. The Nottingham will no longer run via the Hallam line, but that route will still have 2 fasts and 1 stopper per hour. Whether the other fast will run elsewhere beyond Sheffield or not, I'm not sure. I'm assuming the post you quoted was referring to the stopper.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought that was going to become one of the Northern Connect routes as an extension of the Retford service?

The fast trains all disappear of an evening, however I am more concerned with the service to the intermediate stops, which currently have for the most part 144's (three and two carriages) 142's and 150's.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the 2 semi-fasts per hour will extend to Lincoln and be a Connect service. The Nottingham will no longer run via the Hallam line, but that route will still have 2 fasts and 1 stopper per hour. Whether the other fast will run elsewhere beyond Sheffield or not, I'm not sure. I'm assuming the post you quoted was referring to the stopper.

And we're still going to end up with two trains an hour sailing through for the glory of Barnsley, whilst residents of Normanton, Castleford and Woodlesford limp on with a service that hasn't improved since before privatisation.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And we're still going to end up with two trains an hour sailing through for the glory of Barnsley, whilst residents of Normanton, Castleford and Woodlesford limp on with a service that hasn't improved since before privatisation.

Normanhattan and CasVegas will gain an extra hourly service to Huddersfield, hopefully there'll be convenient connections from that at Wakefield onto the fasts?

 

[yorksrob]

Normanhattan and CasVegas will gain an extra hourly service to Huddersfield, hopefully there'll be convenient connections from that at Wakefield onto the fasts?

That might work for Normy if the connection is tight enough.

On Sundays when the service from Leeds is two hourly, there's a useful option to change from the Nottingham train at six past the hour for a 5-10 min connection.

That said, will people get an easement to allow the double back ? (my metrocatd allows me to do this).

 

[FromA2Bbytrain]

I think the 153s should be converted back to class 155s.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think the 153s should be converted back to class 155s.

I've seen discussions on this before including other Forums. It's not so simple as one would think apparently purring them back together. Re-wiring for one thing plus others and would be too expensive to undertake. You can couple 2 x 153 s together as a 2 Car so leaving as singles would provide greater flexibility

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen discussions on this before including other Forums. It's not so simple as one would think apparently purring them back together. Re-wiring for one thing plus others and would be too expensive to undertake. You can couple 2 x 153 s together as a 2 Car so leaving as singles would provide greater flexibility

Re-wiring? Why? Just couple the things small cab to small cab, and leave them like that.

The problem with keeping as singles is the need for a large bog.

 

[tbtc]

I don't mind seeing the back of the 153s - it was always going to be a tricky decision for whoever gets lumbered with them when the music stops (i.e. is it worth upgrading trains with seventy odd seats... trains that have sagging roofs that suggest Leyland's build quality hasn't stood the test of time...).

The problem I have is that a lot of the replacements (20x 150, 5x 156, 8x 158 and 16x "170s") partly depend upon electrification elsewhere in the UK, so if anything gets delayed elsewhere, we could be at the end of the food chain for cascaded stock.

No service should really be running if it can't justify something longer than a single 153 these days - it'd cheaper and more fuel efficient to hire a handful of taxis.

But looking at the "gains" and "losses" columns, I prefer the future to what we currently have!

I was travelling on a Whitby service today that was full and standing (yes - in the middle of winter) from before Battersby

In fairness, it's Half Term weekend in this part of Yorkshire - I don't know if that's the same further north (it certainly is in a number of parts of England, based on the "happy family" pictures dominating my social media...), but that's going to have quite a difference in passenger numbers on a line like that (compared to next weekend).

 

[PHILIPE]

Re-wiring? Why? Just couple the things small cab to small cab, and leave them like that.

The problem with keeping as singles is the need for a large bog.

I'm not technical myself but as I have picked up, easier said than done. Are you technically minded and understand the pros and cons ? Again only going on what I've picked and seen replies to other people who have said it's not easy and have trusted their explanations . My main source is through discussions on Facebook.

 

[zn1]

long term it wouldnt make sense to rip out cabs, what is the point ?

Better idea is to perm couple 153s together, narrow cabs in middle locked out of use..
create a 153/2 subclass to cater for them. and use them as 2 cars

 

[superkev]

Good riddance I say to the trains designed by a dwarf. Let's hope the similar rust bucket 155's prove uneconomic to refresh.
I can't see the economics of spending much money on any 30+ year old trains let alone these.
The Leyland national bus body which the 142, 153 and 155 was based had a design life of 15-18 years.
K

 

[NorthernSpirit]

A great idea would be to use the "new" cabs as the "front" and lock out the original cabs - which would be in the middle.

The theoretical 153/2's would then look different to the remaining seven class 155's, which would help some staff (I remember reading somewhere where a member of staff didn't sign 155's but did sign 153's, they got to the centre of the unit and noticed that there were no cabs - it was a 155. Easy mistake to make.)

 

[Roast Veg]

The newer cabs are much more cramped than the originals, not nice for the drivers in those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not technical myself but as I have picked up, easier said than done. Are you technically minded and understand the pros and cons ? Again only going on what I've picked and seen replies to other people who have said it's not easy and have trusted their explanations . My main source is through discussions on Facebook.

If you can couple 2 153s, you can couple 2 153s and not uncouple them (though I have heard of wiring issues involving coupling small cab to small cab, so it might have to be small to large).

 

[PHILIPE]

If you can couple 2 153s, you can couple 2 153s and not uncouple them (though I have heard of wiring issues involving coupling small cab to small cab, so it might have to be small to large).

They're all right as they are but you can't blame the many people who have suggested turning them back into 155s. There is uncertainty as to how long they will last, anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're all right as they are but you can't blame the many people who have suggested turning them back into 155s. There is uncertainty as to how long they will last, anyway.

Yes, another thread seems to indicate the LM ones are in very poor condition with lots of rust, some of it in structural locations. They already visibly sag in the middle. Not the finest construction in the world - indeed, basically just a bogied monocoque Pacer.

 

[47802]

Good riddance I say to the trains designed by a dwarf. Let's hope the similar rust bucket 155's prove uneconomic to refresh.
I can't see the economics of spending much money on any 30+ year old trains let alone these.
The Leyland national bus body which the 142, 153 and 155 was based had a design life of 15-18 years.
K

Indeed the only words relevant to these trains are, bin. scrap yard, skip etc.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If pairs of 153s were coupled together permanently (small cab-small cab), one of the bogs in the pair got replaced with one that meets the disabled regs and both small cabs were removed what would the net gain/loss of seats be?

 

[J-2739]

If pairs of 153s were coupled together permanently (small cab-small cab), one of the bogs in the pair got replaced with one that meets the disabled regs and both small cabs were removed what would the net gain/loss of seats be?

Probably no gain.

There wouldn't really be enough space to fit new seats between the end doors and the cab, and the disabled toilet would eat up more space.

That's even assuming that the 153 combo's would not be refurbished to create extra legroom, extra standing space, etc.

 

[dk1]

Either use them as an extra vehicle in an already modified unit that meets the new regs, offer them to preservationists or scrap. Plenty of new stock on order. Just order some more.