Northern Rail Ticket Evasion

[dc1991]

Hi,

I travelled from Station A to Station B today, with a single ticket bought by cash. During my journey, in discarding an old collection of tickets in my wallet I also discarded today's ticket. Arriving at Station B, I was unaware of the mistake I'd made and displayed a ticket from just a few days ago. An inspector (who I believed introduced himself along the lines of Revenues) allowed me to return to the train to attempt to find my ticket.

As I couldn't even remember where I'd sat, panicking I looked quickly down the side of a few seats to no avail. The engine of the train started up and as I (wrongly) believed it was about to leave, I quickly got off the train without my valid ticket to return to the inspector.

Unaware of the consequences, I offered to buy another single ticket but the inspector declined. He took my details and said that I would receive a letter in (I think) 3-4 weeks. Absolutely mortified by this incident, I asked what the repercussions would be. He said in a worst case scenario, I would be fined £60-£100, allowed to pay the fare again or given a warning as I have never offended previously.

After reading up online, I've found that some cases can lead to court and I can't actually put into words how anxious I am about this. I have been a traveler on this route regularly for nearly three years as I go to University in the city of my destination and I always make sure I have a ticket. Admittedly I was careless today, but made an honest mistake. I'm due to move to America in June for 2 months to work and I'm apprehensive that my frustrating mistake today will jeapordise this opportunity, should it become a criminal issue.

I was wondering, based on the information here, what I can expect when I receive a letter in a few weeks time. Playing the waiting game is going to be horrible.

 

[bb21]

You have committed a Byelaw offence by failing to show a valid ticket on demand. In addition, I think you can also be reported under the Regulation of Railways Act, which if convicted carries a criminal record, as you showed an out-of-date ticket when requested which can be taken as intent to avoid paying your fare.

You should receive a letter in the post asking you for your version of events. It should arrive in a few weeks however it has been known for some railway companies to take longer.

Were you cautioned at the time? What questions did the RPI ask you?

 

[dc1991]

You have committed a Byelaw offence by failing to show a valid ticket on demand. In addition, I think you can also be reported under the Regulation of Railways Act, which if convicted carries a criminal record, as you showed an out-of-date ticket when requested which can be taken as intent to avoid paying your fare.

You should receive a letter in the post asking you for your version of events. It should arrive in a few weeks however it has been known for some railway companies to take longer.

Were you cautioned at the time? What questions did the RPI ask you?

I wasn't given any sort of caution. The RPI was almost casual about the whole incident. He asked me my home address, how long I've lived there, birth-date etc. He also asked if I had been ever committed such an offense in the past, which isn't the case. He asked me if I paid for my valid ticket in cash which was the case. He attempted to confirm that my address and name checked out, but he had an issue with his mobile phone. He concluded by asking if I had not been checked for a ticket, would I have left the station without a valid ticket. I responded 'Mistakenly, yes.'

Based on this all of this information, what should I expect after responding to the initial letter?

 

[yorkie]

Based on this all of this information, what should I expect after responding to the initial letter?

That depends on how you respond, but on the basis of what you've said above, a letter stating their intent to prosecute seems a strong possibility.

 

[dc1991]

That depends on how you respond, but on the basis of what you've said above, a letter stating their intent to prosecute seems a strong possibility.

I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with what this could mean for me? Would this involve a court case and fine or can it be settled out of court. Would prosecution mean I would have a criminal record?

 

[bb21]

I responded 'Mistakenly, yes.'

Big mistake. This will only confirm any suspicion they might have regarding your intent.

I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with what this could mean for me? Would this involve a court case and fine or can it be settled out of court. Would prosecution mean I would have a criminal record?

You can offer them a cash sum to settle out of court, although they are not obliged to accept it. For first-time offenders they might consider such an offer.

If you are convicted under the Regulation of Railways Act then you will have a criminal record. If you are prosecuted under Railway Byelaws then you should not have a criminal record if convicted, only a fine.

 

[jon0844]

The question about whether you'd have walked out is tricky because saying yes clearly incriminates you.. but if you had bought a valid ticket and were under the impression you had a valid ticket, you'd still walk out if there was no gate or person to show it to (when you would now realise).

You'll need to make that fact very clear, as it's not the same as if you hadn't been able to buy a ticket and walked out to get a free ride.

Clearly that question is awkward in this situation; they'd take the 'yes' admission and - bang - have all they need for a prosecution.

 

[yorkie]

There are plenty of other threads here where the same questions have been asked - I recommend you read them.

You're jumping ahead a lot here, but yes if Northern decide to prosecute then by definition that means they are intending to take you to court, and if you are found guilty it could result in a criminal record (depending on the offence).

I cannot say whether or not you would be able to reach an out of court settlement with Northern, but as I said in another thread a couple of days ago, Northern do not seem particularly willing to settle (unlike other TOCs such as LM, LO, FCC etc who are much more keen on the evidence I've seen), but it depends on the evidence available to them.

It does sound like they have a lot of evidence in this case though.

 

[bb21]

The question about whether you'd have walked out is tricky because saying yes clearly incriminates you.. but if you had bought a valid ticket and were under the impression you had a valid ticket, you'd still walk out if there was no gate or person to show it to (when you would now realise).

You'll need to make that fact very clear, as it's not the same as if you hadn't been able to buy a ticket and walked out to get a free ride.

Clearly that question is awkward in this situation; they'd take the 'yes' admission and - bang - have all they need for a prosecution.

The big issue here is that the OP unfortunately has no proof that he bought a ticket in the first place. Northern only have his words for it.

 

[dc1991]

The question about whether you'd have walked out is tricky because saying yes clearly incriminates you.. but if you had bought a valid ticket and were under the impression you had a valid ticket, you'd still walk out if there was no gate or person to show it to (when you would now realise).

You'll need to make that fact very clear, as it's not the same as if you hadn't been able to buy a ticket and walked out to get a free ride.

Clearly that question is awkward in this situation; they'd take the 'yes' admission and - bang - have all they need for a prosecution.

Big mistake. This will only confirm any suspicion they might have regarding your intent.



You can offer them a cash sum to settle out of court, although they are not obliged to accept it. For first-time offenders they might consider such an offer.

If you are convicted under the Regulation of Railways Act then you will have a criminal record. If you are prosecuted under Railway Byelaws then you should not have a criminal record if convicted, only a fine.

There are plenty of other threads here where the same questions have been asked - I recommend you read them.

You're jumping ahead a lot here, but yes if Northern decide to prosecute then by definition that means they are intending to take you to court, and if you are found guilty it could result in a criminal record (depending on the offence).

I cannot say whether or not you would be able to reach an out of court settlement with Northern, but as I said in another thread a couple of days ago, Northern do not seem particularly willing to settle (unlike other TOCs such as LM, LO, FCC etc who are much more keen on the evidence I've seen), but it depends on the evidence available to them.

It does sound like they have a lot of evidence in this case though.

Thank you all for your responses. I'll obviously take all this into account once I've received the letter. Obviously the information in front of me is somewhat distressing, having never committed a crime in my life. And with my American opportunity potentially in jeopardy, I can only hope that this does not become a criminal matter.

 

[jon0844]

The big issue here is that the OP unfortunately has no proof that he bought a ticket in the first place. Northern only have his words for it.

Oh, of course.. but if the OP is telling the truth then he wasn't attempting to evade the fare and nor was walking out without buying a (new) ticket fraud.

I am not sure how the OP will prove innocence, but if there's no record of any previous offence and the admission is explained, hopefully they'll seek to settle out of court. The OP will have to admit that not having a ticket was his fault, of course, and that his mistake is of little concern to the TOC - but plead for some compassion.

The key is to have the TOC go for the lesser Byelaw 18 offence, rather than use the statement to go for a fraud conviction. Expect to still be asked to pay a hefty sum, but take it on the chin as it wasn't their fault. And I can sympathise as I've also (once - never again) used a train journey to go through old tickets and nearly tore up my valid ticket. Okay, so I'd have still had the ticket in this case (and in any case, I noticed in time) but I can see how a totally innocent moment of stupidity could end up in something far more serious happening after.

 

[bb21]

Thank you all for your responses. I'll obviously take all this into account once I've received the letter. Obviously the information in front of me is somewhat distressing, having never committed a crime in my life. And with my American opportunity potentially in jeopardy, I can only hope that this does not become a criminal matter.

The first thing to do is calm yourself down and try not to panic. What has happened is in the past and you cannot undo it. Take a breath, and try writing down everything that happened, what was asked and what was said in response, on a piece of paper while the memory is still quite fresh. The last thing you want is for your statement to contradict what the RPI wrote in his.

When the letter arrives, come back and see if you can get some help in writing your reply.

Meanwhile, have a look at previous threads on similar subjects (There are many!) and try not to scare yourself too much.

 

[cuccir]

To the OP: Do you have any evidence that you are a regular paying traveler (any other old tickets in wallets/bags)? In the past it's being suggested that this can make companies more inclined to settle out of court.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with jonmorris0844 here.

If after having said that you believed you were in possession of a valid ticket, you would have just walked out if you weren't stopped, then I can't see how that could be argued that you admitted any intent to evade the fare.

You clearly can't admit to intending to evade a fare if you said that you thought you held a valid ticket, nor would anyone who thought they held a valid ticket decide to buy a second ticket at their destination. The RPI's question in this case seems irrelevant to me w.r.t proving intent for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

However, the TOC would have a strong case to prosecute under the Railway Byelaws, so it may well be worth trying to negotiate an out-of-court settlement after they have written to you.

 

[yorkie]

I have offered to help via PM but the OP does not appear to want my help, so I have recommended he sees a solicitor if & when Northern ask him for a written Statement.

 

[dc1991]

To the OP: Do you have any evidence that you are a regular paying traveler (any other old tickets in wallets/bags)? In the past it's being suggested that this can make companies more inclined to settle out of court.

I'm afraid I only have a handful of past tickets, not enough to show that I use the service 3-5 times a week. I tend to dispose of them. I could only make an effort in the future to keep my tickets but I'm sure it'll make little difference in this case and I most certainly won't be making this sort of mistake again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with jonmorris0844 here.

If after having said that you believed you were in possession of a valid ticket, you would have just walked out if you weren't stopped, then I can't see how that could be argued that you admitted any intent to evade the fare.

You clearly can't admit to intending to evade a fare if you said that you thought you held a valid ticket, nor would anyone who thought they held a valid ticket decide to buy a second ticket at their destination. The RPI's question in this case seems irrelevant to me w.r.t proving intent for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

However, the TOC would have a strong case to prosecute under the Railway Byelaws, so it may well be worth trying to negotiate an out-of-court settlement after they have written to you.

I can only hope that you're right in this case as you are right in suggesting I'd never intend to evade a fair. It's not in my character to be so dishonest. I hope that the company see this is the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have offered to help via PM but the OP does not appear to want my help, so I have recommended he sees a solicitor if & when Northern ask him for a written Statement.

I'd like to offer my thanks to you all for your advice. It was not a case of not wanting your help, I assure you. As I couldn't answer one of the questions you asked, I was under the impression that you couldn't help me. No offence intended. Thanks again.

 

[bb21]

I agree with jonmorris0844 here.

If after having said that you believed you were in possession of a valid ticket, you would have just walked out if you weren't stopped, then I can't see how that could be argued that you admitted any intent to evade the fare.

You clearly can't admit to intending to evade a fare if you said that you thought you held a valid ticket, nor would anyone who thought they held a valid ticket decide to buy a second ticket at their destination. The RPI's question in this case seems irrelevant to me w.r.t proving intent for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

However, the TOC would have a strong case to prosecute under the Railway Byelaws, so it may well be worth trying to negotiate an out-of-court settlement after they have written to you.

I hope for the OP's sake this is a valid line of defence against accusations of intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

Unfortunately I do not believe so as what the OP described is something that could easily be replicated by an intentional fare-dodger. I am not saying that he is one, however the sticking point as I previously pointed out is that there is no proof whatsoever in support of his case. Therefore I do not believe it is a valid line of defence. I could be wrong of course and I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant. Whilst I don't think their answer to that question by the RPI is an admission of intent, I don't think it disproves intent either. If the TOC has other evidence to support a belief that there was intent to avoid the fare, then they may of course be successful in prosecuting under RoRA with that evidence. Or a court may simply not agree with my view on things.

 

[34D]

Was the ticket you purchased something that many people will have purchased on that day/at that time, or was it from a station where few people got on? Or was it bought on the train?

 

[dc1991]

I received a letter this week from Northern Rail and thought I would come back and let you know the conclusion to this case as I noticed so few people seemed to return.

After almost 18 weeks the letter arrived titled 'Fixed Penalty Notice' and it quoted the Regulations of Railways Act. The letter offered the opportunity of discharging any liability to conviction for any offence by payment of a Fixed Penalty of £80.00.

As I'm sure many will understand, this is a huge relief. On the day, what was a case of carelessness could have resulted in much worse and I'm incredibly grateful to Northern for using what I believe is common sense in this scheme that they've introduced. £80.00 is a small price to pay for a mistake that could have resulted in a criminal record. There has been plenty of sleepless nights and worry over the last few months. Obviously since the incident I've become much more aware of the Regulations of Railways Act and the Railway Byelaws and this scheme works as both a deterrent to customers and as an educational process without effecting the individual for life. I'm well aware that the incident will remain on Northern's system but I'm quite confident in saying that this won't be happening again. A lesson has definitely been learnt.

Thank you all for your words of advice in November.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for letting us know. It is good that it is now sorted. Be more careful next time.