Northern Rail Prosecution

[DHaz]

Hi there, as with everyone else extremely worried and looking for advice.

Yesterday me and my girlfriend caught a train from Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria. It is a journey that costs £1.05 and one we make on a regular basis. The ticket office at SC was closed, and we saw no evidence of a conductor on the train, and there very rarely is. On arrival at Victoria, if we are faced with the situation described above, we purchase a ticket from guards at the barrier. However on this instance, we went up into the MEN area and sat down in McDonalds, where we ate for 15-20 minutes. At this point, we left and completely neglected the fact that we had not yet purchased a ticket.

We were stopped by RPO's in plain clothes, asked a few questions and signed the notebooks they produced. Have read extensively on this forum before posting, so understand that we are guilty of an offence under S. 5 RRA 1889. I assume they will suggest that we are deliberately avoiding the fare. We are both students, and I am a law student with a training contract, so understand completely the ramifications of a criminal record.

We cooperated completely, and I attempted to be as polite and accepting as possible. They asked the question whether we would have left with out a ticket if not stopped and we both said yes. This I can assume, is a clear admission of guilt. So for them, they have an open and shut case? We have never been stopped before and have never attempted to leave the station without a ticket.

I realise that many of the responses will be, wait for the letter, but I am wondering how likely it would be that we can persuade them to settle out of court. A stupid mistake could well do away with several years of work if they refuse. I told the bloke that I had tickets for the same journey a day earlier in my wallet and he said to send them in, yet I understand that this may be of no use? Also, I appreciate that in law were are 100% guilty, but will the fee in question be mitigation at all?

Many thanks for any advice that you can provide.

 

[Chapeltom]

Northern have prosecuted over 50p before, so the amount the fare costs is not likely to make a difference.

There are conductors on every train, but with the distance between SLD and MCV, I don't think they are likely to try and sell tickets given the short space between stops.

There are a few realistic possibilities as you may know, but there's no way of guessing until you get the letter which could be up to 6 months down the line.

A) An £80 fixed penalty
B) They decide to prosecute and ask for your version of events. This could be under a bye-law which is not a recordable offence or the RoRA which does carry a criminal record.

Its a waiting game unfortunately and they may decide to prosecute as they have an open and shut case as you can probably see. I do have sympathy given there were no facilities to purchase a ticket until you reached your destination.

When you left McDonalds, where did you go and where were you approached for a ticket by the RPOs?

 

[TOCDriver]

Hi there, as with everyone else extremely worried and looking for advice.

Yesterday me and my girlfriend caught a train from Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria. It is a journey that costs £1.05 and one we make on a regular basis. The ticket office at SC was closed, and we saw no evidence of a conductor on the train, and there very rarely is. On arrival at Victoria, if we are faced with the situation described above, we purchase a ticket from guards at the barrier. However on this instance, we went up into the MEN area and sat down in McDonalds, where we ate for 15-20 minutes. At this point, we left and completely neglected the fact that we had not yet purchased a ticket.

We were stopped by RPO's in plain clothes, asked a few questions and signed the notebooks they produced. Have read extensively on this forum before posting, so understand that we are guilty of an offence under S. 5 RRA 1889. I assume they will suggest that we are deliberately avoiding the fare. We are both students, and I am a law student with a training contract, so understand completely the ramifications of a criminal record.

We cooperated completely, and I attempted to be as polite and accepting as possible. They asked the question whether we would have left with out a ticket if not stopped and we both said yes. This I can assume, is a clear admission of guilt. So for them, they have an open and shut case? We have never been stopped before and have never attempted to leave the station without a ticket.

I realise that many of the responses will be, wait for the letter, but I am wondering how likely it would be that we can persuade them to settle out of court. A stupid mistake could well do away with several years of work if they refuse. I told the bloke that I had tickets for the same journey a day earlier in my wallet and he said to send them in, yet I understand that this may be of no use? Also, I appreciate that in law were are 100% guilty, but will the fee in question be mitigation at all?

Many thanks for any advice that you can provide.

I would suggest you explain that to Northern themselves, who are reasonable people in my experience. Why not give them a tweet and they'll put you on the right direction. However, if you left McDonalds VIA the upstairs entrance avoiding the platforms, you may have some explaining to do!

 

[DHaz]

We did leave via the upstairs steps, but having sat and eaten for a while we were not really thinking. No excuse, as there was still the opportunity to go to the ticket desk or use an automated machine. We did look for an automated machine at Salford Crescent as its being renovated and we thought one might have been installed but none there as a of yet. We made every effort to purchase a ticket up until Victoria. Doubt that will be of much utility though.

 

[maniacmartin]

You would have actually had to go to the ticket office, as the TVMs (Ticket Vending Machines) only sell tickets from the station where they are sited*

* Except TVMs operated by Southern Railway, including Gatwick Express

 

[Asian Demon]

There are conductors on all trains along that route however Conductors will not go out between Salford Crescent and Victoria as it's impossible to do a ticket check and keep the train to time as you have Salford Central in between. Trust me, as a conductor who works trains daily along that stretch I know this first hand. Keeping the train safe and to time is our main concern. Best advice is to wait for the letter.

You wouldn't have had a opportunity to buy till Victoria if the ticket office at crescent was closed, but the problem here is that you didn't go get your ticket. It surprises me how many people get caught out by this because everyone seems to be going to the mcdonalds or using the exit via the car park for the MEN instead of getting the tickets they need for the journey they have made as soon as possible. On top of all of this you have openly admitted that had you not been stopped you would not have purchased tickets. I'd wait for the letter but be prepared to apologise a lot and you may be lucky and get off with a expensive slap on the wrist.

Routes into Victoria have a huge fare evasion problem because the assumption by a lot of people is that fare evasion isn't a big deal or that they have a right to not pay for tickets. As a former member of revenue staff for two TOC's based in London, I am so shocked at the attitudes to people up North to paying fares. Not all obviously but a large minority. It seems foreign to so many. I gave a couple from Moston the shock of their lives when after refusing to pay on my train and making it clear they were going to leave via the car park, to have BTP and revenue waiting for them (helped that we had BTP at the station due to EDL). They weren't offered the right to purchase at that point and both will be hearing from Northern. As a conductor along the routes, we are getting sick of it. Northern are now taking a tougher line with fare evasion. I just wish they'd also make it possible for people to get tickets at origin. In any case this is a moot point as you would have had an opportunity at Victoria. There is really no excuse.

 

[DHaz]

Thanks for responses, we 100% accept the fact that we had a chance to purchase at victoria, just genuinely slipped our minds to do so. We both have several tickets for both before and after the event showing how often we use the railway on the same route. We completely understand that it is unacceptable to travel without a ticket and we will offer any settlement northern request, we have no upper limit. As a law student I am just worried that with a case of clear liability they will choose to prosecute, as they are certain to recover costs. We admitted that we wouldnt have purchased a ticket as we were at the exit, and to have said that we intended to purchases a ticket would have surely been taking the mickey.

 

[W230]

As a former member of revenue staff for two TOC's based in London, I am so shocked at the attitudes to people up North to paying fares. Not all obviously but a large minority. It seems foreign to so many.

Interesting. I was on a Northern service a couple of weeks ago and a large group of lads on their way bank holiday boozing made it very clear that they would not be purchasing tickets for the journey, whether the guard came round or not. I didn't see him again after they got on, and I doubt that they all queued up for tickets on exit at Sheffield.

In fact now I think about it, I see this quite commonly amongst large groups when on Northern services, though I only seem to travel with Northern normally on and around bank holidays when people have been/will be out boozing...

Is it not such a problem in London then?

 

[island]

There are a lot of gated stations in London.

 

[jb]

In fact now I think about it, I see this quite commonly amongst large groups when on Northern services, though I only seem to travel with Northern normally on and around bank holidays when people have been/will be out boozing...

Is it not such a problem in London then?

Down south these groups may well be heading (more frequently) to London termini and/or other barriered stations.

 

[Flamingo]

One great thing about dealing with the "Can't pay, won't pay, you can't make me pay, I'm only going one stop" brigade is that all the usual rules of dealing with customers go out the window, and (provided nobody who will get offended is within earshot) you can call them pretty much any names you like. They are usually so shocked that somebody in a uniform has called them a thieving lowlife little scrote ( with suitable Anglo Saxon terms added in) that quite often their response is "I'm writing to customer services about you", to get the reply "Great, please do, then we'll have your name and address to take you to court for being fare-dodging scum".

Otherwise, just stand there and announce to the carriage "Fare dodger here, you are all paying to subsidise their journey"!

 

[DHaz]

We have both received letters from Northern asking for our version of events. Assume this is the general course of action.

Would greatly appreciate any assistance with drafting the letters.

 

[34D]

I think to apologise, and emphasise that it was a mistake, and won't happen again.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with 34D; only adding my advice to keep the response well within one page.

I'm not going to help you to draft the letter because a) you seem perfectly capable of structuring your thoughts and articulating them already, and b) it really must be your statment of facts - facts which only you know.

I am in no doubt that your 'story' of eating and then forgetting is of absolutely no benefit to you in law, but in terms of explaining a suspicious delay, and a contributory factor to your error, it should be mentioned very clearly, and with any times or evidence you have.
Yes, do briefly refer to your regular and evidenced payments.

I also suggest that you make very brief but clear and factual statement about the circumstances at the boarding station : Salford Crescent, and on board the train. You were frustrated from buying a ticket before travel and again during travel, both for the reasons you gave on here. If these are factually correct and you can provide evidence or times and places which would enable the Company to unambiguously verify or deny the evidence, then you must do so. [those would form an element of a rebuttal of any further action against you so should be included at this stage]

 

[DHaz]

Thanks for all your advice, the problem remaining, is that we never mentioned to the RPO's that we had forgotten to buy a ticket after McDonalds. We just said that we ate there for 15 minutes, as we were both pretty flustered when stopped.

To say so now seems to look like having had the benefit of a few weeks to plan, we are trying to find a route out of prosecution?

 

[island]

Well, if you are motivated to avoid prosecution, Northern is normally amenable to accepting a sum of £80 plus the unpaid fare in consideration of it taking matters no further, assuming you haven't previously come to their attention.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . the problem remaining, is that we never mentioned to the RPO's that we had forgotten to buy a ticket after McDonalds. We just said that we ate there for 15 minutes, as we were both pretty flustered when stopped.

To say so now seems to look like having had the benefit of a few weeks to plan, we are trying to find a route out of prosecution?

As I tried to explain yesterday, the interval at McDonalds is of no consequence to any of the possible avenues of prosecution which the Company might consider, but mentioning it provides a plausible explanation for the delay between travelling and being questioned - a delay which deserves some explanation; to avoid mentioning it leaves your 'story' lacking an explanation for a material discrepancy in the times.

There is no reason for you to omit the truth.

 

[DHaz]

Thought i'd post my outcome as there seems to be very few who do!!

Northern replied with the standard £80 + fare charge. Incredibly relieved, expensive mistake.

Thanks for those who posted in here offering help and advice.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for updating us.

 

[185143]

Otherwise, just stand there and announce to the carriage "Fare dodger here, you are all paying to subsidise their journey"!

A Metrolink driver did that at Brooklands on my tram once when three people got on, only one had a valid ticket and they were refusing to get off the tram and buy a ticket, the inspector went and spoke to the driver!
Luckily for everyone else, they did get off, but whether they bought tickets or jumped onto the next tram is another question!