Northern Rail passenger tries using Electron (resolved)

[yorkie]

I recently travelled with Northern Rail on a local journey in West Yorkshire, and a passenger tried to pay with an Electron card, which of course is not accepted as it has no offline payment facility.

He said something about having bought on-board with such a card before (unlikely) and said he had no other means of payment. I think I heard him also say he had lost his ticket (again unlikely - if anyone is in that situation common sense would be to approach the guard immediately and to co-operate with any procedures). He also refused to co-operate with the procedure for being issued an Unpaid Fares Notice.

This went on for some time, and it was clear he was not going to co-operate and the guard went back to his cab. He then got up and went towards the cab, I wasn't sure what he was going to do so I pointed to the cameras and said it was best to do as the guard says, as there's CCTV.

To my surprise, he then paid the guard, saying that someone had given him the money. In reality, no-one had. So, clearly, he was just saying that as an excuse because he had earlier denied having any cash on him.

I felt the Guard handled the situation really well, was very fair and polite throughout. I am not sure if what I said helped resolve the situation or not, but I felt it was the right thing to do.

 

[Flamingo]

The presence (and indeed absence) of CCTV does make a difference. Our RPI's are trialling shoulder-mounted CCTV. They haven't had a chance to find out how it will stand up in court yet, as nobody wearing it has had any incidents! Strange that

 

[island]

I believe a similar arrangement applies on c2c.

 

[falcon]

I recently travelled with Northern Rail on a local journey in West Yorkshire, and a passenger tried to pay with an Electron card, which of course is not accepted as it has no offline payment facility.

He said something about having bought on-board with such a card before (unlikely) and said he had no other means of payment. I think I heard him also say he had lost his ticket (again unlikely - if anyone is in that situation common sense would be to approach the guard immediately and to co-operate with any procedures). He also refused to co-operate with the procedure for being issued an Unpaid Fares Notice.

This went on for some time, and it was clear he was not going to co-operate and the guard went back to his cab. He then got up and went towards the cab, I wasn't sure what he was going to do so I pointed to the cameras and said it was best to do as the guard says, as there's CCTV.

To my surprise, he then paid the guard, saying that someone had given him the money. In reality, no-one had. So, clearly, he was just saying that as an excuse because he had earlier denied having any cash on him.

I felt the Guard handled the situation really well, was very fair and polite throughout. I am not sure if what I said helped resolve the situation or not, but I felt it was the right thing to do.

Good man it's a shame there aren't more like you.

I have heard passengers who HAVE bought a ticket turn on the Guard and make remarks saying "I don't blame him for not paying the trains are always late they are dirty and the fares are far to high" ect. The public are just barmy sometimes

 

[Flamingo]

I've had it said to me! Now't as queer as folk!

 

[Tibbs]

The presence (and indeed absence) of CCTV does make a difference. Our RPI's are trialling shoulder-mounted CCTV. They haven't had a chance to find out how it will stand up in court yet, as nobody wearing it has had any incidents! Strange that

Both sides have to behave, so a win all round.

 

[Flamingo]

Both sides have to behave, so a win all round.

And it prevents malicious allegations and false accusations of misbehaviour against staff...

 

[embers25]

And it prevents malicious allegations and false accusations of misbehaviour against staff...

It also helps the likes of RJ on southeastern prove that the staff really did behave as badly as he claims! I could have done with guards with cams on a few Virgin services where they were adamant my ticket wasn't valid even though it was as I'd happily show my ticket to the camera for further proof.

 

[Tibbs]

And it prevents malicious allegations and false accusations of misbehaviour against staff...

Hence why I said both sides. :roll:

 

[Captain Chaos]

This happens quite often. I once had a guy try and buy a season ticket from me with one and just said "swipe it". Said I couldn't accept it on the train and he would have to buy it at the other end (which he could do). He said he wasn't aware he couldn't use it on the train etc, etc. Give him the benefit of the doubt and that was that. No problems!

The next day he gets on my train again, waves his Electron card in front of me again and says can I buy a season ticket off you! He wasn't pleased when I passed him to the RPI's a few rows down.

 

[reb0118]

I had a good one the other day. Two pax boarded at an unstaffed halt with the intention of travelling a few stops up the line. As soon as the debit card came out the purse I knew it would decline (you can tell by the colour and the second set of "four digits" for RBS/NW issued cards viz. 1700 ok but 1600 will decline).

I attempted to swipe with one hand & call the card authorisation line with the other (whilst the two jaikes helpfully tried to distract me) but the cheeky wee madam had nicked the magnetic swipe to stop the card being swiped. To be fair this was academic as the helpline declined the transaction too!

A request for names & addresses followed but at this the male pax became rather uppity and started off on a rather vocal rant about rail fares being expensive. I agreed with him but also pointed out that one of the reasons that they were so was because he and his ilk were unable or unwilling to pay their own way. I am sure my words of wisdom were wasted.

As a result they were politely but firmly asked to leave the train. Whilst walking away I heard them mutter something about getting a taxi - good luck with that with no funds!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Both sides have to behave, so a win all round.

Yes indeed - I like the sound of this a lot, assuming it records sound as well as pictures. Would have been very helpful in the run-in I had with two FGW RPIs last year, when one of them pretended to be reading the ticket terms and conditions from his machine but actually was elaborating them with his own made-up bits.

 

[Flamingo]

Hate to dissapoint you all, but it's not recording 24/7, but only when the staff member presses the record button.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I attempted to swipe with one hand & call the card authorisation line with the other (whilst the two jaikes helpfully tried to distract me) but the cheeky wee madam had nicked the magnetic swipe to stop the card being swiped. To be fair this was academic as the helpline declined the transaction too!

I guess you'd retained the invalid & mutilated card to return to merchant services too?

 

[pinguini]

Hate to dissapoint you all, but it's not recording 24/7, but only when the staff member presses the record button.

Which could be at the start of their shift?

 

[Flamingo]

Which could be at the start of their shift?

No, the briefing is they only record when they feel a need for evidence purposes, apparently.

 

[reb0118]

I guess you'd retained the invalid & mutilated card to return to merchant services too?

No, we have been instructed not to retain cards under any circumstances. We have also been instructed to accept cards that are being used by persons not originally issued with the card (if you get my drift) if the PIN is correct. e.g a spouse/partner using the other half's card.

I, personally, do not think this is correct.

Normally we only find this out when the transaction is declined. However as the system no longer tells us why the transaction is declined we do not know the reason and are therefore instructed not to retain cards.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you knowingly accept cards without the cardholder, surely you leave yourselves open to chargebacks? Doesn't it make you as knowing party to fraud?

 

[reb0118]

If you knowingly accept cards without the cardholder, surely you leave yourselves open to chargebacks? Doesn't it make you as knowing party to fraud?

I agree, but remember this:-

Technically we as operators should not touch the passengers card - we hand the reader over to them - they insert their card, input their PIN, & remove the card - then they hand the reader back to us. We issue their ticket & receipt and move on.

Now it is only when the transaction is declined that we have to swipe the card (after obtaining suitable authorisation) and therefore have to check the card and verify the signature - how can that be done if the card is issued to another person!

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm not overly clued up on the rules, but I thought that merchant agreements require you to withdraw the card in that case.

I know we all hate supermarket analogies, but I witnessed this happen in Tesco once. A male was using a card with a female name on it, and the diligent cashier called the manager who withdrew the card. Perhaps it was heading towards a big pair of scissors

 

[island]

I'm not overly clued up on the rules, but I thought that merchant agreements require you to withdraw the card in that case.

I know we all hate supermarket analogies, but I witnessed this happen in Tesco once. A male was using a card with a female name on it, and the diligent cashier called the manager who withdrew the card. Perhaps it was heading towards a big pair of scissors

Correct. And the staff member may be eligible for a £50 reward.

 

[34D]

I'm not overly clued up on the rules, but I thought that merchant agreements require you to withdraw the card in that case.

I know we all hate supermarket analogies, but I witnessed this happen in Tesco once. A male was using a card with a female name on it, and the diligent cashier called the manager who withdrew the card. Perhaps it was heading towards a big pair of scissors

Yes. We have a couple of posters who work in this industry who can perhaps give us chapter and verse. However, to accept a card you know to not be theirs is leaving the staff member in a vulnerable position.

Don't your terminals ever come up with "retain card"?

 

[anthony263]

I briefly worked in the retail industry serving customers at the till and never had the terminal come up with retain card

 

[Flamingo]

I once had a "telephone for authorisation" message come up, but it's normally "accepted or "declined".

While I often phone for authorisation via the automated system and it usually authorises no problem when the "declined" message comes up, I have never successfully completed a fraud enquiry, the line always cuts off at some point, or I'm told "Please hold" by the guy in India and he never comes back.

 

[sarahj]

Last night a pass tried to buy a ticket to Cardiff with a card. She did not know the pin number, oh and the sig strip was blank. She had no other ID on her. Oh and no cash. As I was doing a stopper, and just had no time to deal with it, we were soon at Portsmouth. She then headed for her FGW train direct to Cardiff. I just hope the FGW had the time to deal with her. It was 20.30, so few ticket offices open as well.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes. We have a couple of posters who work in this industry who can perhaps give us chapter and verse. However, to accept a card you know to not be theirs is leaving the staff member in a vulnerable position.

Having just checked the relevant merchant procedures, the basic line is that you should make a "Code 10" call to the authorisation centre if you're at all suspicious about the card or holder. This includes cards that haven't been signed.

Of course, if that was followed to the letter, you'd be on the phone 95% of the time you got an American customer paying by card...

If you make such a call or you need to manually enter the card details, you're also supposed to take a manual imprint of the card and get the customer to sign the paper voucher. (Usually the Merchant Services Provider will supply a set of "Verification" forms for this purpose, in addition to the normal Banking ones).

 

[Muzer]

Ever so slightly offtopic, I tried buying something on a train with my blue NatWest Visa Debit card, and it was declined (fortunately I had cash on me). I've looked a little but can't see anything that tells you how to request a purple card that allows offline transactions... I just saw something buried somewhere obscure that implied I'd need a good credit rating. Since I'm a student and have had no need for such a thing before, I've no idea how good my credit rating is or how to find out...

Anyone have any idea what I should do if I want one? I'd rather not be caught out having boarded a train without ticketing facilities with no cash - which isn't something I'd rule out accidentally doing in my mind.

 

[maniacmartin]

You should speak to your bank, who may of course say no . I think the slow death of the Electron and Solo brands is a bad thing, as now there is no easy way to tell if a card is online-only just by looking at it.

You can get a free continuous look at what's going on in your credit report by signing up to Noddle, whcih is run by one of the big three credit reference agencies. You may find your report rather empty if you've never really had credit though

You could apply for one of the less attractive credit cards (there are even some specifically aimed at students) which would help start building up a track record of paying debts on time. Or you could get a load of £20 notes and stuff them in your wallet and exercise more self-control.

 

[Muzer]

Thanks - I suppose having an emergency 20 in my wallet isn't a bad idea. I'd never even considered I'd need to ensure I'm carrying cash anywhere before - the few places that don't accept cards usually have cash machines nearby. Obviously not the case on a train!

 

[island]

Having just checked the relevant merchant procedures, the basic line is that you should make a "Code 10" call to the authorisation centre if you're at all suspicious about the card or holder. This includes cards that haven't been signed.

My understanding is that if an unsigned card is tendered, the merchant should ask for ID with a photo and signature, and require the cardholder to sign the card there and then, comparing the signatures. The transaction must also be authorised online, but not necessarily by telephone.

Of course, if that was followed to the letter, you'd be on the phone 95% of the time you got an American customer paying by card...

Why's that then?