Northern Rail - Non payment of Fare

[AM1]

Hello everyone

I'm hoping someone can kindly give me some guidance on how best to proceed with a situation my younger sister has found herself in.

She was travelling from Halewood (a manned station) and boarded the train with no ticket as she was in a rush and would have otherwise missed the train - this is no excuse i know, as she now does. The local northern rail services on this line have in my experience always allowed the opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard who normally comes round offering to sell tickets however in this instance the guard didn't come round. At Liverpool Lime Street she approached the barrier with her purse in her hand asking to buy a ticket however was taken to one side and details taken.

A letter has been received from the "Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit" asking her to complete her details, name, address, DOB, Occupation, date and contact numbers and offers the opportunity to make comments on the reverse. The letter threatens legal action, quotes the "regulations of railways act and railway byelaws apply" and says that should legal proceedings be invoked that in addition to any fines there will be an application of £150 towards costs. It also says that offences of this nature are recordable and she may receive a criminal record.

Now, she realises the seriousness of the offence and that she shouldn't have travelled without a ticket however we are where we are....she's a student in her final year of university and a criminal record will seriously hamper her work opportunities as she wants to work with kids when she finishes.

The question is does anyone have any advice on how we can maybe settle this out of court? It's her first offence of ANY nature and i'll be willing to pay any fines or costs etc for her. I know everyone says this but she's a good girl who works part time whilst in uni and isn't one of these asbo 20 year olds you see on Jeremy Kyle etc.

If anyone has any help or guidance it would be much appreciated!

Thanks for reading

 

[bb21]

What questions were asked when she was taken aside and what were her exact responses if she can remember?

 

[AM1]

Thanks for your response bb21, she thinks she was asked why she didnt have a ticket before she got on - her reply was becuase she thought she could buy one on the train. this exchange happened with the barrier staff who check the tickets. He then took her details and said that they would send her a letter and then make a decision on it. Now the letter has arrived as per the original post.

For what it's worth she wasn't trying to get out of the station without a ticket she did ask to buy one - on this service my past experience (I no longer live there) has always been that there's been the opportunity to buy a ticket on board and worst case at Lime Street however things have obviously changed!

Again any advice would be gladly received

 

[michael769]

Unfortunately it is a criminal offence to fail to display a valid ticket when requested to do so by a member of staff. The only exception is where there were no ticket purchasing opportunities at the station where the passenger started their journey.

What this means in practice is that it is illegal to board a train at a station with an open ticket office without having a ticket. The fact that guards do not always enforce this is immaterial as it may not be their job to do so.

Given the circumstances a charge of ticket fraud or fare evasion under the Regulation of the Railways Act is unlikely to succeed (unless she said something to incriminate herself which we are unaware of) however it does appear that there may be sufficient evidence to support a charge under the Railway Bylaws for failing to show a valid ticket when requested to do so. The one positive is that this is a lesser charge which does not normally result in a criminal record.

It is sometimes possible in these cases to get a ToC to accept an out of court settlement, I note that Northern Rail has given you an indication of the sort of costs they would be seeking to recover, where this is done a good starting point is to offer a sum equivalent to the stated costs plus the cost of the ticket, accompanied by an apology and an assurance that the offence will not be repeated. This sum is likely still be much less than the combined fine, costs, compensation and surcharges levied by a court upon conviction.

There is no guarantee that the ToC will accept the offer however given the circumstances and assuming she would be planning to plead guilty if it was taken to court there is certainly no harm in making the offer.

 

[Haydn1971]

Interestingly, Leeds station has a ticket booth inside the barriers specifically for people who haven't purchased a ticket on the train earlier - I would suggest that it is a little unfair to almost encourage post trip purchases at some stations, then prosecute at others. :-/

 

[michael769]

Interestingly, Leeds station has a ticket booth inside the barriers specifically for people who haven't purchased a ticket on the train earlier - I would suggest that it is a little unfair to almost encourage post trip purchases at some stations, then prosecute at others. :-/

Presumably some incoming lines will have unmanned stations? This type of facility is normally provided to allow passengers who have not yet been offered an opportunity to obtain a ticket to do so.

 

[AM1]

Unfortunately it is a criminal offence to fail to display a valid ticket when requested to do so by a member of staff. The only exception is where there were no ticket purchasing opportunities at the station where the passenger started their journey.

What this means in practice is that it is illegal to board a train at a station with an open ticket office without having a ticket. The fact that guards do not always enforce this is immaterial as it may not be their job to do so.

Given the circumstances a charge of ticket fraud or fare evasion under the Regulation of the Railways Act is unlikely to succeed (unless she said something to incriminate herself which we are unaware of) however it does appear that there may be sufficient evidence to support a charge under the Railway Bylaws for failing to show a valid ticket when requested to do so. The one positive is that this is a lesser charge which does not normally result in a criminal record.

It is sometimes possible in these cases to get a ToC to accept an out of court settlement, I note that Northern Rail has given you an indication of the sort of costs they would be seeking to recover, where this is done a good starting point is to offer a sum equivalent to the stated costs plus the cost of the ticket, accompanied by an apology and an assurance that the offence will not be repeated. This sum is likely still be much less than the combined fine, costs, compensation and surcharges levied by a court upon conviction.

There is no guarantee that the ToC will accept the offer however given the circumstances and assuming she would be planning to plead guilty if it was taken to court there is certainly no harm in making the offer.

Thanks Michael, in terms of not incriminating herself would you suggest on the reverse writing an apology explaining she was in a rush to get to university to meet a deadline and didn't want to miss the train - apologise profusely and offer the £150+cost of ticket to settle out of court? We're looking to close this matter asap with them so will send recorded delivery etc

 

[Chapeltom]

Thanks Michael, in terms of not incriminating herself would you suggest on the reverse writing an apology explaining she was in a rush to get to university to meet a deadline and didn't want to miss the train - apologise profusely and offer the £150+cost of ticket to settle out of court? We're looking to close this matter asap with them so will send recorded delivery etc

I would not include anything about University or anything like that, its not relevant I'm afraid. But I know what your trying to say, I'm a student myself!

For my University deadlines and Uni in general, bear in mind I commute 55 miles to Uni, I make sure I'm timed to arrive at Uni an hour before in case I'm delayed.

Northern have seemed to taken a harder approach at Lime St in recent months but I agree it can be hit and miss. Although I would never take the chance, its not worth it.

 

[bb21]

Interestingly, Leeds station has a ticket booth inside the barriers specifically for people who haven't purchased a ticket on the train earlier - I would suggest that it is a little unfair to almost encourage post trip purchases at some stations, then prosecute at others. :-/

Encouraging? No, they are not. They are giving people who have not had an opportunity to pay the chance to pay.

Lime Street has a similar facility I believe, in the form of an RPI with an Avantix machine.

It is all irrelevant though as the accused boarded at a staffed station and had an opportunity to pay. I can't really add more than what those above me have already said.

 

[Haydn1971]

Encouraging? No, they are not. They are giving people who have not had an opportunity to pay the chance to pay.

Whilst I accept the rules are what they are, the people buying tickets look like regular peak time commuters who could quite easily purchase a season ticket in advance of travel - I frequently see queues 30-40 people deep. These people could be acting in good faith, but could also be playing the system, as many do on the early trains that I catch. I see regulars almost always buying a single ticket rather than one from the station machine on the basis that the guard won't reach them in time on their trip home and if they are lucky, will travel free "to" work as well. Although these are people not travelling all the way to Leeds.

 

[snail]

Interestingly, Leeds station has a ticket booth inside the barriers specifically for people who haven't purchased a ticket on the train earlier - I would suggest that it is a little unfair to almost encourage post trip purchases at some stations, then prosecute at others. :-/

There have been a few threads started on here by people stopped waiting in line at the ticket window and challenged on whether they could have bought a ticket sooner. As bb21 says, this is for people with no genuine opportunity to buy.

 

[Ferret]

To the OP - this is classic Byelaw 18 territory, it won't result in a criminal record, and indeed it may not get that far. Northern seem to be operating what I'd describe as a quasi-penalty fare scheme where they request an out of Court settlement for a first offence. That may be quite a likely outcome based on recent experiences of others.

 

[AM1]

To the OP - this is classic Byelaw 18 territory, it won't result in a criminal record, and indeed it may not get that far. Northern seem to be operating what I'd describe as a quasi-penalty fare scheme where they request an out of Court settlement for a first offence. That may be quite a likely outcome based on recent experiences of others.

Thanks for your response, hopefully they'll accept the offer of cash with an apology....agreed that it's almost a penalty fare scheme, i'm wondering why not just issue an £80 or £100 on the spot fine payable in 14 days and save on the paperwork and employing people to write the letters and take the calls!

 

[michael769]

Only the courts can issue fines. In the UK not even the police can issue on the spot fines let alone private companies.

 

[AM1]

Maybe describe it as a penalty fare which i've read about then?

 

[bb21]

Maybe describe it as a penalty fare which i've read about then?

Then it will be subject to the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 and associated legislations. Northern can't just introduce a Penalty Fares scheme because they want to. There will be stipulations on things such as ticket-purchasing facility provisions, etc, if such a scheme is to be introduced.

 

[AM1]

It sounded too easy when i said it!

Thanks everyone for your help, i'd welcome any other opinions or advice on wording for the reply to them.

I'll be sure to post the outcome, i've noticed other posters haven't which seems rude when people have taken the time to respond!

 

[Flamingo]

It sounded too easy when i said it!

Thanks everyone for your help, i'd welcome any other opinions or advice on wording for the reply to them.

I'll be sure to post the outcome, i've noticed other posters haven't which seems rude when people have taken the time to respond!

Thanks for that. It is always good to hear the outcome, and indeed, which advice was useful and which not (as sometimes different courses of action are suggested).

 

[455driver]

Also include that she didnt realise she needed to buy before travellling but will ensure she allows herself enough time to purchase a ticket before boarding the train in future.

 

[185]

It is all irrelevant though as the accused boarded at a staffed station and had an opportunity to pay. I can't really add more than what those above me have already said.

Accused. Crikey, that's a bit harsh.

Regardless, I think if the facts genuinely are as stated in the OPs post, I would not consider settling just yet. I would seek advice from Merseytravel, the local PTE, as no penalty fare scheme operates to require customers to hold a ticket prior to boarding.

Merseytravel have serious conflict with Northern over correct staffing of booking offices, which Merseyrail next door seem to manage quite well with.

 

[455driver]

Northern seem to be operating what I'd describe as a quasi-penalty fare scheme where they request an out of Court settlement for a first offence. That may be quite a likely outcome based on recent experiences of others.

I think it is a bit of a re-educating exercise as well, people are used to purchasing on the train and Northern (having realised how much money is lost) are trying to move them away from that before possibly introducing a (proper) penalty fare scheme.

 

[SussexMan]

...as no penalty fare scheme operates to require customers to hold a ticket prior to boarding.

Have you read the Railway Bylaws?
(Subject to 18.3)

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

[185]

Fully aware of them, and I feel that Northern, in going too far and taking them to the letter are slowly going down the same road as FCC prosecutions - alienating our customers is never wise.

Northern should concentrate it's prosecutions on those who try pay short for their journey or those with altered / fake tickets. Seeing more and more of them nowadays which have been missed for months whilst RPIs concentrate on the (slightly) more honest who just avoided the booking office.

 

[AM1]

Fully aware of them, and I feel that Northern, in going too far and taking them to the letter are slowly going down the same road as FCC prosecutions - alienating our customers is never wise.

Northern should concentrate it's prosecutions on those who try pay short for their journey or those with altered / fake tickets. Seeing more and more of them nowadays which have been missed for months whilst RPIs concentrate on the (slightly) more honest who just avoided the booking office.

I would agree with this, notwithstanding the current situation my sibling is in I travelled daily from South Parkway / Hunts Cross to Manchester Oxford Road for 18 months and the amount of people buying tickets on the day when they had travelled from either station buying tickets at Oxford Road in the massive queues that occur just didnt make sense. The same faces dodged the guard on the busy TPE service and I assume purchased a Warrington/Birchwood ticket on arrival to get themselves through the barriers. Not only is it cheaper to go for a season ticket for such a journey it's also significantly more convenient when the queues for a ticket in the morning on the platform side there can be in excess of 20 minutes - who wants this before work EVERY day?!

 

[AntoniC]

What could prevent people buying season tickets is the cost and the fact that perhaps they dont have an employer like mine ( I`m a Civil Servant), who will provide me with an interest free loan (deducted monthly out of my salary) to buy my season ticket each year.

(This year £1152 for an annual all zones Merseytravel Trio, which I think is excellent value !.)

 

[34D]

Accused. Crikey, that's a bit harsh.

No it isn't. This is a matter that is likely to end up before a Magistrates' bench, along with people who are accused of crimes such as shoplifting, drink driving, GBH, murder, etc, so accused is the correct term.

I think the only difference is that those accused of 'railway' crimes are almost always decent good people who would never commit 'proper' crimes.

I take it that the station concerned has a prominent ticket office, and posters advising passengers to purchase tickets before boarding?

If so, then I can't improve on the suggested reply of others.

 

[Fare-Cop]

No it isn't. This is a matter that is likely to end up before a Magistrates' bench, along with people who are accused of crimes such as shoplifting, drink driving, GBH, murder, etc, so accused is the correct term.

I think the only difference is that those accused of 'railway' crimes are almost always decent good people who would never commit 'proper' crimes.

I take it that the station concerned has a prominent ticket office, and posters advising passengers to purchase tickets before boarding?

If so, then I can't improve on the suggested reply of others.

Exactly, if the station has a staffed ticket office the only person preventing the traveller from getting a ticket for the train that they intend to use is the traveller themselves.

If an intending traveller needs to catch a train at 08.15 every day for work, and that traveller knows that there is always a queue at the ticket office, who is preventing that intending traveller from getting up and out earlier in order to leave time to comply with the legal obligation to buy a ticket?

Yes, we all know that there are exceptional occasions when the bus/taxi turns up late, or an accident on the route may delay traffic, but not every day. If you are in a truly unusual area and if that is an everyday occurence, on the same route, the same logic must apply - start out earlier.

 

[SussexMan]

Fully aware of them...

Sorry, I don't understand. If you are fully aware of them, why did you say that a valid ticket isn't required before boarding the train? You said:

...as no penalty fare scheme operates to require customers to hold a ticket prior to boarding.

Whether or not you agree with prosecutions like this is not relevant to whether a bylaw applies. Surely we shouldn't be telling the OP that they didn't need to buy a ticket before boarding the train.

 

[Haydn1971]

I think it is a bit of a re-educating exercise as well, people are used to purchasing on the train and Northern (having realised how much money is lost) are trying to move them away from that before possibly introducing a (proper) penalty fare scheme.

Excellent example of using a stick instead of a carrot though. Bylaws are frustrating in that the vast majority are unaware of the consequences of failure to comply. Ignorance is no defence I hear being shouted, but whilst some morality is infused into us from a young age like you must not steal, assult or lie, and the important parts off motoring law is learnt during the process of passing the driving test, just how many people would go searching out stuff like this unless "accused" of the crime.

Much of local government regulation is governed through bylaws and it would be a very foolish local authority to start handing out penalties for various bylaws, rather than advising of the offence first. OK, so there are posters on trains telling you that it's offence to travel without a ticket, fine, but how come anyone can buy a ticket anywhere on my route between Leeds & Sheffield ? It's diluting the message and giving a false impression - you either stand by the bylaw or you don't, Northern or any other TOC shouldn't give a conflicting message as they are doing - in two years of travel, I've nearly always bought a ticket on the train from Meadowhall or Sheffield after walking straight past ticket machines and the booking hall - only once has a guard ever told me that I should have a ticket before I board - 99% of the time they have freely sold me a ticket. The current practice is morally wrong.

 

[Ferret]

Haydn1971, I think Northern would argue that if they didn't have a revenue block at major stations, people would walk past an open ticket office because they are in a rush or have a phobia of queues, then they'd possibly not get seen on the train by the Guard, and then they'd march out of the station at the other end without paying. Like 455 driver says, it's a re-education exercise. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but *something* has to be done. Getting people to pay their fares is what ultimately keeps the railway going...