Northern Rail letter

[SusanHarris]

Can anyone advise what the likely penalty will be in our situation, please?

Our 16yo daughter was spoken to by an attendant on the train and we've now received the standard Northern Rail letter.

She couldn't produce her weekly pass when asked and she's not been able to find it since. She had in the morning when going to college, but by the time she was coming home she'd lost it. She hadn't checked she'd got it before boarding the train which she should have done in hindsight, but there we are.

She's looked everywhere for the pass and not been able to find it. We had to buy her a new one after, and since then have started buying monthlies, so at least they can be replaced if lost again.

Now obviously, the issue is not producing the ticket when asked, so even if we could prove she'd bought a ticket (which we can't as we always gave her cash so we didn't have to go in with her), that wouldn't help, would it?

She told us about the problem as soon as she got home from college that day, and we've made her aware that if something came through it would be her responsibility to pay, but I just wondered if anyone would have any idea how much we're looking at? I've not told her the letter has come just yet, as she's in the middle of her A levels and I'd rather she concentrated on those for the next couple of weeks.

Many thanks.

 

[Polarbear]

Northern are currently operating a policy of issuing £80 fixed penalty notices in some cases & this may well be what your daughter will be asked to pay. A lot will depend on whether this is the first incidence that your daughter has experienced as if a similar thing has happened before, Northern may go down an alternative route.

I'm sure others on here will have more detailed knowledge of the exact procedures.

 

[island]

Best case: no further action. Worst case: prosecuted for failing to present a ticket for inspection or for evading the fare (which I would say is not very likely, assuming there are no aggravating factors which have not been mentioned, such as an incorrect name or address being given, whether or not subsequently corrected). In between you have being asked to pay the single fare for the journey made on the day, or that fare plus £80 administrative penalty.

You are correct in saying that the issue is failure to hand over a ticket for inspection, so proving that one was bought, even if you could, wouldn't help her get out of it. This is logical when you think about it, because proving that a ticket was bought doesn't prove that it wasn't given to someone else or anything.

 

[SusanHarris]

She's never been spoken to before, has never failed to buy the correct ticket, and was fully cooperative, providing her details straight away.

She was just careless.

It's been an expensive year for her so far. She'd had her phone taken out of her bag at college a couple of months previously.

Hopefully this will be (yet another) lesson for her to learn to look afer things more carefully.

Thanks for your help.

 

[455driver]

So your 16 year old daughter was polite couteous and provided all the details when requested without any "attitude", is that correct?

If so you should be very proud of her, most teenagers especially around that age have an attitude a mile wide, plus the lack of attitude would have been noted by the RPI and will only help her case.

Please note, I am being serious here (the being proud of her bit) and am not in any way insinuating that the facts the OP has stated are false.

PS whats your secret, I have got a 21 year old I would like to kick into shape!

 

[bb21]

Did your daughter obtain a receipt or anything similar when purchasing the weekly (I assume) season ticket?

It doesn't make any difference officially speaking but if you have one to prove that she did actually have a season ticket, it is more likely that they will use discretion considering your daughter's age.

 

[SusanHarris]

So your 16 year old daughter was polite couteous and provided all the details when requested without any "attitude", is that correct?

If so you should be very proud of her, most teenagers especially around that age have an attitude a mile wide, plus the lack of attitude would have been noted by the RPI and will only help her case.

Please note, I am being serious here (the being proud of her bit) and am not in any way insinuating that the facts the OP has stated are false.

PS whats your secret, I have got a 21 year old I would like to kick into shape!

Yes. I'm satisfied there'd be no 'attitude' - at least not outside the home. She was petrified. No receipts, nothing. She's been tasked with checking through everything again in the hope that we can find it, in the hope that it might at least make them consider the matter more favourably.

 

[323235]

I've not told her the letter has come just yet, as she's in the middle of her A levels and I'd rather she concentrated on those for the next couple of weeks.

Don't these type of letters usually require a response within 7-14 days?

Unless you are intending to respond on your daughters behalf then she will need to respond as quickly as possible to avoid Northern choosing to issue a Court Summons instead of the more likely £80+fare penalty scheme (or better) if she acts fast.

 

[455driver]

A speedy response is needed, apologising and stating the facts as posted earlier, if the receipt can be found then all well and good but it wouldnt change the fact that it is a strict liability offence, your daughter could not produce a valid ticket when asked, and so is guilty (not the crime of the century).

For a first offence, as stated by others, this is normally an £80 admin fee and a "dont do it again" especially with your daughter complying at the time, if you let it lie then it could turn into a court case which you obviously want to avoid.

 

[SusanHarris]

Don't these type of letters usually require a response within 7-14 days?

We will be responding on her behalf, as the letter asked us to, and within the 14 days requested.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

When the weekly was purchased the pass number would have been put onto the ticket so there should be a record of it.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's worth reminding everyone that in normal circumstances the Northern Rail £80 'fixed' out of court settlement only gets applied after any failure to pay the fare due plus admin cost.

Obviously the cases posted here have to be taken at face value, but whilst failure to produce a ticket is a byelaw offence, in reality provided that a passenger has not been picked up previously for such an offence and can prove that they had a pass, threatening prosecution is clearly disproportionate. Of course if there are other circumstances we are unaware of, then it may be appropriate.

 

[island]

When the weekly was purchased the pass number would have been put onto the ticket so there should be a record of it.

I don't think weekly passes are recorded on a database. Only monthlies and up.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I don't think weekly passes are recorded on a database. Only monthlies and up.

when we use the avantix we have to put the number in otherwise it will not issue the ticket. Now whether it is added to a database I don't know but the number does have to be added while issuing

 

[benk1342]

when we use the avantix we have to put the number in otherwise it will not issue the ticket. Now whether it is added to a database I don't know but the number does have to be added while issuing

I suspect that's just to print the number on the ticket, as you can buy weeklies from TVMs that have boxes where you hand-write the photocard number.

 

[185]

Most TVMs up here ask for the photocard number, and pre print it in the box.

 

[reb0118]

When the weekly was purchased the pass number would have been put onto the ticket so there should be a record of it.

I'm not sure if that information is loaded onto a database (see below).

I don't think weekly passes are recorded on a database. Only monthlies and up.

That said, it may be possible to interrogate the avantix to obtain the photocard number input?

when we use the avantix we have to put the number in otherwise it will not issue the ticket. Now whether it is added to a database I don't know but the number does have to be added while issuing

A further point, will the actual photocard number be logged anywhere? It may be possible to obtain this number but what will it prove?

I suspect that's just to print the number on the ticket, as you can buy weeklies from TVMs that have boxes where you hand-write the photocard number.

Most TVMs require you to input your photocard number prior to issue. Like avantix mobile they will accept any old number though! Folk without photocards have been known to input their DVLA driving licence number on occasion.

I'm not sure what, if any, help obtaining this number will do for the OP but I suppose there is no harm in obtaining it if possible. It has always been my belief that weekly season are treated the same as daily tickets for refund & loss purposes.

 

[Asian Demon]

when we use the avantix we have to put the number in otherwise it will not issue the ticket. Now whether it is added to a database I don't know but the number does have to be added while issuing

It doesn't add it to the database. The avantix only asks for the number to be inputted because weekly ticket are now required to have a photo card whereas they didn't need one before.