Northern Rail Franchise Extension 2014

[Bantamzen]

Northern do NOT deserve this franchise.


SIMPLE REASONS:

Dirty Smelly Toilets
Passengers on the route (Stoke-Manchester) always have to wait about one minute for the train doors to open in the station (doesn't happen on Birminghams cross city, same trains)
Always small trains on the busiest routes, never anything extra on football days to help with the overcrowding, stupid policy of never running two 323 units coupled together during peak times.
Never buy any new trains.
Same timetable and frequencys since 1980's
Crackly and a very bad PA system on all of their trains.
Boring livery and logo
Still using diesel DMU trains from the 70's
Failing to buck up their ideas and make priorities

This is just so wrong. Given the constraints of zero-growth, operating an ageing fleet & not being allowed to buy new rolling stock I think Northern have actually done a decent job. It's far improved on how things where towards the end of the ATN franchise when it seemed that Arriva had simply given up trying. If they are successful at the next round, and allowed to grow properly & procure new / newer stock then it will get better still.

Northern were even honest enough a couple of years ago to admit that service levels had slipped a couple of winters ago (even though it wasn't entirely their fault, we'd had an incredibly cold winter here), and made up for this by offering passengers a free weekend of unlimited travel on their network for up to 4 people.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northern do NOT deserve this franchise.


SIMPLE REASONS:

Dirty Smelly Toilets
Passengers on the route (Stoke-Manchester) always have to wait about one minute for the train doors to open in the station (doesn't happen on Birminghams cross city, same trains)
Always small trains on the busiest routes, never anything extra on football days to help with the overcrowding, stupid policy of never running two 323 units coupled together during peak times.
Never buy any new trains.
Same timetable and frequencys since 1980's
Crackly and a very bad PA system on all of their trains.
Boring livery and logo
Still using diesel DMU trains from the 70's
Failing to buck up their ideas and make priorities

Are you 11 or just completely no idea about anything about railways?

1. No, i rarely get a smelly toilet on my journeys.
2. The guard apoligises for carrying out safety duties and selling tickets, and having traveled on that line twice this week it is also a lie.
3. They have no trains. There are no spare trains.
4. Can the platforms take 323s? Where are the extra ones coming from?
5. They require heavy subsidy, they can't buy new trains. It is economics at a very basic level.
6. Same frequencies? Your having a laugh aren't you? Do you actually know what the frequencies were in the 80s?
7. Not on all of them but yes some of them. The crackly PA will need the train taking out of service to fix, they deem running the service as more important with their limited resources. Or do you want shorter trains?
8. Boring livery and Logo. Get a life. That is not a reason to not renew a franchise.
9. Along with other areas of country they have old stock.... Big woop.
10. Not sure what your on about with this one...

Hope you find that insightful and a learning experience... please think before you post drivel on the forum.

 

[Moonshot]

On the subject of PA announcements, if I find that the PA system is crackly or faint, I tend to go out and announce manually to the passengers in each carriage......this works very well if there is a delay and I can explain the reasons for it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

On the subject of PA announcements, if I find that the PA system is crackly or faint, I tend to go out and announce manually to the passengers in each carriage......this works very well if there is a delay and I can explain the reasons for it.

Also appreciated by many punters as they (not me) believe in delays the guards just go and hide in the cab.

 

[Moonshot]

Also appreciated by many punters as they (not me) believe in delays the guards just go and hide in the cab.

I much prefer it if I m honest..and the feedback from passengers has been good.

 

[northwichcat]

What tends to happen when this sort of offer is made is that employees who are only a few years away from retirement and have clocked up a good number of years employment tend to take these offers up.....in effect they get paid garden leave between taking redundancy and their official retirement date.

When I worked for Network Rail , there was a round of voluntary redundancies amongst the maintainace staff........as per usual the Unions were up in arms about it, but failed to disclose the very fact I made above as virtually all those who took the offer up were in that boat!!

Under the Equality Act you're no longer allowed to make cutbacks by asking people over a certain age to retire unless the people you're asking to retire are no longer capable of doing the job effectively e.g. someone who needs to be able to assist passengers in wheelchairs as part of their role who no longer has the physical strength to do so. Of course if the offer is made to everyone doing a certain role and all the people who take up the offer are over 60 then it's a different matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. No, i rarely get a smelly toilet on my journeys.

There are some toilets, particularly on the Pacers which are dirty smelly but on the 150s the smell is usually a strong smell of disinfectant.

4. Can the platforms take 323s? Where are the extra ones coming from?
5. They require heavy subsidy, they can't buy new trains. It is economics at a very basic level.

If Northern had enough stock it would be possible to run 2 x 323s doubled up and have the rear unit locked out of use south of Stockport even if some stations can't take 2 x 323s. I think Stockport, Heaton Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly could take 3 x 323s if needed. However, I think a 6 car 323 would be overkill on most Northern services - it would give around 560 seats.

6. Same frequencies? Your having a laugh aren't you? Do you actually know what the frequencies were in the 80s?

I'd disagree with dannypye9999's statement on that as well. In the 1980s you had some EMUs from the Altrincham line (that's been converted to Metrolink) continuing to Stockport and beyond at peak times. The Airport line and Macclesfield line both saw improvements in 2008.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If they're Pacers, then they date from 1985-1987. Lots of trains on the network are older than them.

The Marple line isn't exclusively Pacers. It also sees 150s from 1984-1987 and 156s from 1987-1989. 156s on a route as short as the Marple line should really be considered a luxury.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern do NOT deserve this franchise.


SIMPLE REASONS:

Dirty Smelly Toilets
Passengers on the route (Stoke-Manchester) always have to wait about one minute for the train doors to open in the station (doesn't happen on Birminghams cross city, same trains)
Always small trains on the busiest routes, never anything extra on football days to help with the overcrowding, stupid policy of never running two 323 units coupled together during peak times.
Never buy any new trains.
Same timetable and frequencys since 1980's
Crackly and a very bad PA system on all of their trains.
Boring livery and logo
Still using diesel DMU trains from the 70's
Failing to buck up their ideas and make priorities

Are you for real??

Dirty smelly toilets - maybe at the end of the day when a unit has been in service all day. If the toilet needs tanking and will (usually) be done when it goes back to the depot.

Wait one minute for the doors to open? if that was so every train would be 10 minutes late by the time they got to their destination. Yes sometimes we do get caught out but we are damned if we do do revenue and customer service and damned if we don't.

Small trains on the busiest routes - A lot of peak time trains are doubled up diesels on the Sheffield/Liverpool/Chester lines one problem with doubled up units is that some combinations do not fit on all the Platforms (for example Hathersage on the down) and we have to work from the local door which not only is slow it can be hard work if we have bikes and wheelchairs, not the passengers fault obviously but what is..is) Also we do not have many platforms that can fit 2x323's and we do not have the spare 323's anyway. (All down to Network rail and Dft I may add and not Northern)


We are a zero growth Franchise we have got almost every spare unit running as it is and we don't "buy" trains that is down to the likes of Porterborok etc. and Northern Lease them.

Same Timetable and frequency since the 80's - Strange that as on t Stoke Line we didnt have an hourly service throughout the day until only a few years ago.

Crackly and bad PA systems - Yes some are bad. Totally agree that is why in times of disruption the majority of us go through and manually explain to passengers what the delay/problem is.

Boring Livery and logo - Since when is that important to the running of a train service (I actually think it isn't bad at all)

Same trains used since the 70's - all our diesel fleet are from the mid 80's and the 323's are from the 90's the last pre 80's trains went at the end of 2003 start of 2004 (The 101's)

Failing to buck up their Ideas and make priorities - We do the best with what we have. We are not perfect by no means but we do damn well with what we have.


Hope that clears up a few points lol

 

[northwichcat]

Small trains on the busiest routes - A lot of peak time trains are doubled up diesels on the Sheffield/Liverpool/Chester lines

AFAIK the only weekday service on the Chester line which is strengthened and needs to to be strengthened is the 15:04 Chester-Manchester. The 09:17 Manchester-Chester is strengthened for the purpose of getting a train moved from Piccadilly to Chester and in school term time usually has ample space while the 06:33 Chester-Stockport was to be de-strengthened. The 07:17 Manchester-Chester needs a lot more capacity and must be one of the most overcrowded weekday services Northern operate, while the 06:58 Chester-Manchester, 16:04 Chester-Manchester, 16:17 Manchester-Chester, 17:04 Chester-Manchester, 17:09 Manchester-Chester and 18:04 Chester-Manchester could do with more capacity but in a couple of those cases switching a 142 for 156 would be adequate.

the last pre 80's trains went at the end of 2003 start of 2004 (The 101's)

FNW did introduce a class 31 hauled mk2 set in 2004 to cover the loan of 2 x 158s to TPE but that ended when Northern took over and the 2 x 158s were returned.

 

[Darren R]

Northern do NOT deserve this franchise.


SIMPLE REASONS:

Dirty Smelly Toilets
Passengers on the route (Stoke-Manchester) always have to wait about one minute for the train doors to open in the station (doesn't happen on Birminghams cross city, same trains)
Always small trains on the busiest routes, never anything extra on football days to help with the overcrowding, stupid policy of never running two 323 units coupled together during peak times.
Never buy any new trains.
Same timetable and frequencys since 1980's
Crackly and a very bad PA system on all of their trains.
Boring livery and logo
Still using diesel DMU trains from the 70's
Failing to buck up their ideas and make priorities

Wow - those are irrefutable arguments! Northern don't deserve a new franchise because the livery is a bit drab and sometimes you have to wait a few seconds for the train doors to open. The directors should be publicly flogged immediately.

Just out of curiosity which Northern routes operate HSTs? They are the only diesel multiple units from the 1970s still operational on the network that I am aware of. Been a while since a Cravens unit turned up at my local station!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I've been on this forum for getting on 4 years now (where does the time go?!) and I don't think a post has ever left me more speechless than dannypye9999's above.

I think everyone else has suitably dissected what has been said so I won't waste my time doing such, however I'll add a bit about train frequencies. Under Northern's existence, the following have all occurred:

- Hourly Sunday services between Blackpool-York
- An additional hourly train from Wigan NW-Liverpool, allowing those services ex-Blackpool to run semi-fast south of Wigan
- A rejigged Preston-Ormskirk timetable, allowing a couple of more services per day, and something that resembles a clockface operation
- Extended running periods to Blackpool South on winter Sundays (from March instead of from May, and I think later in autumn too, but I'm not 100% there)
- Hourly Manchester-Stoke trains, allowing Congleton a regular hourly service (was 2 hourly under XC I think), and Kidsgrove an additional train an hour to Stoke and a whole new regular Manchester service
- Half-hourly trains for Hyde Central and Woodley (up from hourly)
- Manchester-Bradford sub-1 hour thanks to a Calder Valley recast which also introduced a direct service from Manchester Vic-Brighouse and intermediate stations to Leeds via Dewsbury
- An additional hourly Leeds-Wakefield Kirkgate-Sheffield fast service, which continued to Nottingham, allowing Dronfield an hourly service since God only knows when, speeding up Liverpool-Norwich by taking its Langley Mill stop and connecting Leeds and Nottingham direct for the first time since the early 1980s

I'm willing to bet that that's not all of the changes either. Also note all of those have occurred since 2004, never mind 1989! But yes, like you imply, absolutely nothing worthy of praise there :roll:

 

[dannypye9999]

Are you 11 or just completely no idea about anything about railways?

1. No, i rarely get a smelly toilet on my journeys.
2. The guard apoligises for carrying out safety duties and selling tickets, and having traveled on that line twice this week it is also a lie.
3. They have no trains. There are no spare trains.
4. Can the platforms take 323s? Where are the extra ones coming from?
5. They require heavy subsidy, they can't buy new trains. It is economics at a very basic level.
6. Same frequencies? Your having a laugh aren't you? Do you actually know what the frequencies were in the 80s?
7. Not on all of them but yes some of them. The crackly PA will need the train taking out of service to fix, they deem running the service as more important with their limited resources. Or do you want shorter trains?
8. Boring livery and Logo. Get a life. That is not a reason to not renew a franchise.
9. Along with other areas of country they have old stock.... Big woop.
10. Not sure what your on about with this one...

Hope you find that insightful and a learning experience... please think before you post drivel on the forum.

There again this is your opinion not mine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see everybody now jumping down my throat because I left my own opinions about a TOC. These are my opinions, sorry in advance if my own honest and valid opinions have caused offence.

 

[Class377/5]

I see everybody now jumping down my throat because I left my own opinions about a TOC. These are my opinions, sorry in advance if my own honest and valid opinions have caused offence.

Stating a TOC is unfit because you don't find the livery exciting isn't a valid comment but rather a sign that you opinions aren't really adding to the debate in any useful way.

Of course you have the right to air the views, its just you cant expect to be taken seriously when you do, especially if your making comments that frankly are pathetic, as it overshadowed any valid point you could have.

 

[47802]

There again this is your opinion not mine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see everybody now jumping down my throat because I left my own opinions about a TOC. These are my opinions, sorry in advance if my own honest and valid opinions have caused offence.

I'm amused that anybody even bothered to reply to your comments.

Still to be fair I would agree that northern rails livery is crap even though it doesn't really matter if the livery is crap not.

 

[Deerfold]

- Manchester-Bradford sub-1 hour thanks to a Calder Valley recast which also introduced a direct service from Manchester Vic-Brighouse and intermediate stations to Leeds via Dewsbury

Overall there's been a lot of improvements under Northern but several stations saw a reduction in their service to Leeds via Bradford from 2tph to 1tph (particularly annoying as the service via Brighouse/Dewsbury was added before the service via Bradford was withdrawn so they briefly had 3tph to Leeds).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the subject of PA announcements, if I find that the PA system is crackly or faint, I tend to go out and announce manually to the passengers in each carriage......this works very well if there is a delay and I can explain the reasons for it.

Is the PA problem one that the Class 150 units are prone to or does this occur on other of Northern Rail stock ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Northern had enough stock it would be possible to run 2 x 323s doubled up and have the rear unit locked out of use south of Stockport even if some stations can't take 2 x 323s. I think Stockport, Heaton Chapel, Levenshulme and Piccadilly could take 3 x 323s if needed. However, I think a 6 car 323 would be overkill on most Northern services - it would give around 560 seats.

I tend to agree with what you have said about the Class 323 units, living as I do on a line that is fortunate to have these units performing stopping-train duties on reasonably regular basis. The odd Class 142 Pacer that appears only serves to remind us how very fortunate we are to have Class 323 units as our main commuter rolling stock running to Prestbury and Macclesfield (in particular) from Manchester.

 

[dannypye9999]

Is the PA problem one that the Class 150 units are prone to or does this occur on other of Northern Rail stock ?

The problem I experience is on the class 323. I travel mainly on a 323 between Kidsgrove and Manchester. My hearing isn't really good either so I cant catch everything he says through the PA. Guards seem to speak too fast like every passenger on board has super jodrell bank style hearing, no attention tone either like on virgin trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hi all

Does anyone know if northern have had their franchise extended yet?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf

Northern - April 2014 - Feb 2016 is the extension period

Southeastern also have an April extension date. I believe that although they are direct awards they are still going through the tender process and will still be subject to agreements. I would have thought the documents would have been available by now and everything signed and agreed :/

 

[YorkshireBear]

There again this is your opinion not mine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see everybody now jumping down my throat because I left my own opinions about a TOC. These are my opinions, sorry in advance if my own honest and valid opinions have caused offence.

Well that's not true. Valid means they have substance and evidence. Yours are just opinions.

 

[swt_passenger]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf

Northern - April 2014 - Feb 2016 is the extension period

Southeastern also have an April extension date. I believe that although they are direct awards they are still going through the tender process and will still be subject to agreements. I would have thought the documents would have been available by now and everything signed and agreed :/

Unfortunately you are 'preaching to the converted' with this. There was a whole thread on the timescales for Northern's direct award franchise which ran between Feb 22 and Feb 26:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97014

Typically, it was all done and dusted, with reference to DfT's plan etc, and then this earlier thread was re-started only a few days later, and since sent off at a complete tangent by dannypye9999... :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern and TPE have signed a deal with Network Rail for a RDG pilot at Leeds Station. The agreement commits NR to use whole life costs for infrastructure accounting and allows development partners (Northern and TPE) to share the financial benefits of a scheme coming in under budget, i.e. that they could redistribute the underspend into other projects rather than it going back into NR's central pot and 'lost to the region' so to speak. The idea is it reflects the TOC's construction management/planning/alternative service arrangements contribution to projects.