northern rail fixed penalty notice questions

[heleness]

Hi, I received final demand for a fixed penalty notice. I have never received any other demand. Is this normal?

The demand is dated 25th July and offence was 24 t h January. They are threatening prosecution but aren't they out of time to issue a summons?

The weirdest thing is the circumstances. I rushed onto a train with massive queues at the desk and one ticket machine not working. I just assumed I could buy one on the train. No one came so I thought I could buy one on my way out. Same scenario as a hundred other people as stupid as me. A lady asked for my ticket and I explained I didn't have one but wanted to buy one. She said they were having an awareness drive making people aware they needed to buy one before they board. She then took my name and address, verified the address and asked for details. She then said all they wanted to do was let the train co know and they would send me a reminder about paying before I travel. At this point I got worried and said I didn't want to get in trouble and just wanted to pay. She said she didn't want me to pay it was just to make people aware. I admit I should have bought before but I feel that my details were obtained on a lie. It makes me feel duped. Stupid I know but I just wanted to gage other people's opinions. If she had been honest I would have felt stupid but paid. I would also like to make a complaint about the method used. Any opinions (pls be nice, I pay hundreds in rail fares every year and I feel bad enough)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would consider that the Fixed Penalty Notice is, in and of itself, adequate notice that the sum stated is due for payment. Perhaps there is detailled wording available to you to suggest otherwise, but this would be my presumed default position in interpreting the liability to pay such a Notice.

The Notice refers to a civil debt, and as such is subject to commercial terms, which include the 6 years referred to in the Limitation Act (popularly known as the Statute of Limitation). The Company is not 'out of time' to issue a Summons, but you may be 'out of time' to settle the matter by simply paying the debt

I do not advise attempting to tell a story in which the Company are the party at fault at this late stage - its too late to lay blame elsewhere, particularly as you have let so much time pass without paying your debt. I strongly advise paying the debt and calling to make sure that the liability is discharged by that payment and that the Company will not pursue that Prosecution.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to learn, but it will bring the matter to a close and allow you to get on with what matters more in your life.

 

[island]

DaveNewcastle, I hesitate greatly in attempting to disagree with you as you are almost invariably correct. But I feel I must do so on this occasion.

The nature of the document referred to as a "fixed penalty notice" is not made sufficiently clear to give a completely confident answer, but given the mention of Northern Rail, my suspicion is that it is not, in fact, a request for payment of a Civil Debt; rather, it seems to me to be the usual claim for £80 plus the avoided fare which Northern Rail and its agents make of passengers who fail to comply with the requirements to purchase a ticket covering their journey. [It is almost certainly not a Fixed Penalty Notice in the legal sense of a document issued by the Police detailing a sum whose payment within a specified time will avoid further action being taken, despite the similarities to the situation at hand.] One should bear in mind that Northern's notices of this type do not create a debt as the passenger has not at that point entered into an agreement to pay the sum.

If this is so, and an Information has not been laid before the Court concerning the alleged Offence, it would by now be out of time to lay same. Any civil action which Northern Rail might maintain can only be for the value of the ticket which heleness ought to have bought, assuming she has not entered into a contract to pay more.

 

[northwichcat]

How long did you queue at the ticket office? If you queued for 20 minutes and didn't get served before the train arrived then your circumstances are different to someone who turned up 2 minutes before the scheduled departure time, saw a queue and jumped directly on to the train.

 

[heleness]

Thanks for your replies. I spoke to northern rail and they agreed that they could not prosecute and agreed to waive the 80 pounds and I paid the fare. Massively easier than I thought it would be. Thanks!

 

[bb21]

That's a good outcome for you. Lucky that you don't have to learn it the expensive way. If you find that you are repeatedly having to wait for ages to get a ticket, perhaps ask Northern how early you should arrive at the station in order to comply with their requirements. If you don't get a satisfactory response, you may want to take the matter up with Passenger Focus or your MP.

I also think you should just drop those other accusations. It won't get you anywhere.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

 

[island]

Thanks for your replies. I spoke to northern rail and they agreed that they could not prosecute and agreed to waive the 80 pounds and I paid the fare. Massively easier than I thought it would be. Thanks!

Good to hear, and as I suspected.

Let's not beat around the bush though: you were lucky this time that Northern didn't get its act together sufficiently to prosecute you for the crime of joining a train without a ticket. Don't do it again!