Northern Rail Fixed Penalty dispute

[mellen50]

Any advice greatly appreciated - my Son travelled from Hunts Cross to Wavertree Tech Park in July on a ticket which he brought in good faith and believed to be correct/valid for the journey. But he was stopped at Wavertree by ticket inspector to be told it was invalid for the journey as it was for All Liverpool stations. The ticket inspector seized his ticket and got him to sign for 'something'. He later received the fixed penalty notice in post and I put a suitable response statement to them saying he did not knowingly travel on an invalid ticket - wasn't used to train ticket pricings and was not aware that Wavertree did not come under 'all Liverpool stations' - this ticketing does sound ridiculous and complicated - how would a stranger to City be aware of this and believe it isn't explained anywhere at stations.
Upshot of this is a further letter has been sent saying Pay the £80 or go to Court.
They are saying he evaded the fare, but as we said in statement he didn't he paid a fare which I believe is actually more than if he brought a direct ticket from Hunts cross to Wavertree.
Also he was not given the opportunity to pay any additional fare and had to buy another ticket to travel home from work later that day.
Can anyone advise as I feel this had been taken out of all proportion and when questioned with Northern Rail they will not listen. Have basically said pay the fine or go to court.

 

[bb21]

Which way did he go? Did he go via Lime Street or did he change at South Parkway? Did he buy a single or return? How much did he pay for the ticket?

He may have a case, but we will need to know the answer to these questions first of all.

 

[mellen50]

He changed at Edge Hill not sure exactly how much paid, will check as it was a return ticket.

 

[Quakkerillo]

There are four possible routes, according to NR.
(1) Hunts Cross to Liverpool South Parkway, change on the Preston service (via Liverpool Lime Street
(2) Hunts Cross to Liverpool Lime Street, change for a train to Wavertree
(3) Hunts Cross to Edge Hill, and change there.
(4) Hunts Cross to South Parkway, to Liverpool Central, walk to Lime Street, and then to Wavertree.
With the 2,90 ticket, all these routes seem to be valid.

How was the ticket bought (online / office / TVM) and what ticket was asked for?

 

[cuccir]

I think that it is worth emphasizing quite strongly at this point that if he did travel on a route for which the ticket was not valid, intention to avoid a fare is not required for the lowest level convictions for 'fare evasion', Railway Byelaw 18 (see a description here).

Crucially, then, lack of knowledge or intention is not a legal defence in those instances. If it does emerge that in error he traveled without a valid ticket, and there are no further mitigating factors (that he was told it was valid for Hunts Cross-Wavertree, for example) then it really would be best to pay the £80. The only way that lack of knowledge in and of itself could you get out of it would be by pleading to Northern's better nature (which happens, but of course is not guaranteed).

This is more of a warning note at this stage - your responses to the previous questions will be useful. One more thing to ask I think is your son's age? This might affect how Northern would act.

 

[bb21]

He changed at Edge Hill not sure exactly how much paid, will check as it was a return ticket.

Did he go Hunts Cross - Central/Moorfields/Lime Street - Edge Hill - Wavertree or Hunts Cross - South Parkway - Edge Hill - Wavertree avoiding Lime Street?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It reads to me that he was using a Liverpool Stns ticket (mods' note: see Confusion over tickets to station groups e.g. 'Liverpool Stations') and it was that, not the route, that made it an issue.

 

[mellen50]

Thanks for all the replies, son is 19 he paid for ticket at machine with card, but will have to check with him what route/option he selected as I trust him (obviously) when he said he thought he was knowingly buying a correct ticket for the journey he was taking (not being used to travelling on train as I usually gave him lift to work)

 

[yorkie]

It looks like he may have bought a return from Hunts Cross to Liverpool (£3.75), while the correct fare would be from Hunts Cross to Wavertree Techpk (£4.00 at peak times or £3.70 at off peak times). Is that right?

If so, he either underpaid by 25p or overpaid by 5p. However small the amount, even if a negative amount, Northern can still prosecute, sadly.

What time did he travel? What destination did he search for? Was the ticket office open and was there anyone to ask for assistance if he was unsure on the destination?

The ticket to Wavertree would be valid either to change at Edge Hill, or to 'double back' through Edge Hill into Liverpool and back again.

But the ticket to Liverpool isn't valid to head back out towards Wavertree.

I agree a stranger to the city may not be aware of where Wavertree is in relation to Liverpool, in which case my advice would be to seek information from staff if there was no suitable map available at the station. If neither were present, I'd use a help point if possible. Hunts Cross should be staffed at all times so in theory there should have been staff available?

 

[mellen50]

That ticket price sounds about right for what I think he paid, but I know he paid at machine rather than ask for assistance as he was late for work (and boss not very understanding and he's new to job) so would have been rushing for work.
I know this sounds like I am being a defensive 'mother' but am quite angry about the way this has been handled by Northern Rail, tone of letters and the lack of understanding when we have spoken to them on the phone

 

[34D]

Northern Rail tried to prosecute someone for 10p which failed, on the facts.

Depends whether he wants to try his luck with the bench or settle for £80.

Can you answer the questions already posed of what time of day it was when he set off, and what precise route was taken?

 

[yorkie]

I know this sounds like I am being a defensive 'mother' but am quite angry about the way this has been handled by Northern Rail, tone of letters and the lack of understanding when we have spoken to them on the phone

I understand your frustration but try not to take it personally. He's one of numerous people who will have received similarly worded letters. No-one can make them change their ways. The law is on their side (customers can be considered guilty of a Byelaw offence even if they didn't have any intent to avoid payment, so your letter stating he didn't have any intent doesn't refute the allegations of a Byelaw offence) and is heavily weighted against customers (the railway has its own unique and specific legislation which makes it completely incomparable to, for example, being a bus customer - a lot of people do not realise how different it is!). To be honest your best bet is to simply pay it.

If you wish to make a complaint, then feel free to do so. Many others have done so and nothing ever happens. The complaint won't get anywhere, you can refer it to Transport Focus and your MP, but that probably won't achieve much either.

 

[najaB]

...the railway has unique legislation which makes customers guilty even if they didn't have any intent to ...

I didn't know that only railway legislation operated on the principle of strict liability.

 

[Starmill]

Please try to remember or find out what time as close as you can the journey commenced.

You say payment was by card? So it should also be possible to check precisely how much was paid?

Regarding your frustrations I really do enpathise. Unfortunately this ks the railway, the law is such that they can do this and in some cases worse things with impunity.

We do actually have a thread to discuss Northern's policy on the matter, but I don't advise you read it because most contributors here support Northern rather than its customers.

In short why would they want your £3.70 when they can have your £83.70 under threat of court (which although we can't yet say for sure, it looks like you'd be unlikely to have success in).

 

[yorkie]

mellen50 - I really do not think there is anything we can add other than to simply pay the £80 out of court settlement. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear, but it is the best possible advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

mellen50 - I really do not think there is anything we can add other than to simply pay the £80 out of court settlement. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear, but it is the best possible advice.

I would agree with this (even though on more reasonable TOCs a £20 Penalty Fare would have been the correct thing to issue in such a case). Northern have the law on their side, and to fight it is only likely to result in a higher financial penalty and possibly a criminal record.

 

[Starmill]

I have to agree. And, if in doubt, there were staff available to ask.
mellen50 - I really do not think there is anything we can add other than to simply pay the £80 out of court settlement. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear, but it is the best possible advice.

Frankly I think this is the best evidence we have yet seen that Northern are abusing the unusually powerful laws on their side. I couldn't urge the OP more strongly to make as much noise as you can after paying.

If you're not short of cash you could consider calling their bluff. Be prepared to pay for legal advice and then still to lose though!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

They are saying he evaded the fare, but as we said in statement he didn't he paid a fare which I believe is actually more than if he brought a direct ticket from Hunts cross to Wavertree.

While he may indeed have paid a greater sum for the ticket than the due fare for the journey taken, it was not the actual fare for the actual journey.
Unlike consumer purchases where an amount paid for some goods can be commuted into payment for other goods to the same value, railtravel is perfoemed under contract for specified journeys by a passenger in person.

To illustrate the difference, a fare between two stations is likely to cost the same in both directions. But the ticket, which is provided as evidence of the Contract, will only be valid for travel in one direction between those stations and has no validity whatsoever in the opposite direction.

I share the surprise of those others who noticed that a passenger travelling to a station whose name begins with "W" had sought out a ticket to 'Liverpool Stations'. This might require some further explication.

 

[mellen50]

Thank you all for your replies, I can see we will just have to pay but I think the legislation and rail bylaws stink and would hope to be able to take further to change them but not expecting anyone will listen.
I don't think my son will be using Northern rail again in a hurry, he will use a bus where possible. It appears that Northern rail use this bylaw as a way of collecting additional revenue from sometimes naive or ill informed passengers from reading various forums.
Thank you again for advice

 

[yorkie]

I will lock this thread regarding this specific incident until there are any further developments.

Let us know when you have an update (send me a PM and I'll unlock the thread).

If anyone wishes to further discuss the potential for confusion over tickets to station groups e.g. 'Liverpool Stations' feel free to do so on that thread.

And if anyone wishes to discuss Northern's £80 settlements please feel free to do so.