Northern rail fare problems

[CCJD]

Hello,

I need some expert advice please.
My 16 year old son went to Leeds Station and asked for a ticket to Manchester, he was given a Child ticket (not discovered at the time)
He was pulled at Manchester and asked if he was a child, he said yes, but gave his age as sixteen.
There was an officer there who took his details etc.
He did tell the officer that he asked for a ticket to Manchester and was given a (childs) ticket.
No other penaly fare or extra chatges were discussed.
He was told he would get a letter in thrre weeks.

Will my son be prosecuted, ?
He was very upset as he did not do anything wrong, but something wrong happened.

 

[Simon11]

I would write a letter to Northern Customer Services, explaining the incident. I'm sure they would provide some lee way and a lesson learnt!

 

[First class]

Probably better in the fares section?

I doubt your son will be prosecuted as he is a minor, however I also think you will find he will almost certainly have lied, to you and/or the ticket office staff. Ticket Office staff rarely (if ever) will issue a child ticket unless it is explicitly clear they are a child or one is specifically requested.

I do think an "administrative penalty" is likely to be requested usually around £50.

It is always the responsibility of the passenger to ensure their ticket is valid for the journey they wish to undertake.

Technically he can be prosecuted under Byelaw 18(1), or if they can prove he knew he was over age, then a more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889, Section 5 offence be more appropriate. The TOCs should (and usually do) make every effort to avoid taking someone under 18 to court unless the circumstances give the prosecutor little choice but to proceed, (i.e. has happened before).

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel

Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

Requirement to hold a ticket: Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make

Realistically, your son underpaid by 50% so between £7 and £10 in revenue has been lost. Depending on what he said to the Inspector, what actually got said when he purchased the ticket, and whether he has done this before will be the deciding factors how this progresses. The best outcome will require complete honesty from your son, if he has lied, he needs to say, because they can find out. Northern can prove intent to defraud if the conversation went:

1) How old are you?
2) 15

1) Whats your DOB?
2) gives DOB making him older

1) So you're actually 16
2) Yes

or so on...

 

[LCC106]

I think that to say "I also think you will find he will almost certainly have lied, to you and/or the ticket office staff." is rather unfair, LM_ We don't know the conversation that occurred, and whilst some people of all ages and walks of life may lie, not everyone is like that.

I agree, write to customer services explaining the situation. The fact that your son provided the correct contact details suggests to me that he is unlikely to have lied. However, as I wasn't present and don't have experience in this area of the railway, I've no idea how this will be treated.

 

[First class]

I agree, write to customer services explaining the situation. The fact that your son provided the correct contact details suggests to me that he is unlikely to have lied. However, as I wasn't present and don't have experience in this area of the railway, I've no idea how this will be treated.

That is really bad advice! DO NOTHING AT ALL, JUST WAIT!

They will write to you if they need to. A report may not even be filed, and in any case they could lose the paperwork.

All they will tell you to do is wait for the letter from their Prosecutions Dept.

Why would a member of ticket office staff issue a child rate ticket without ANY prompting, when another member of staff checking the ticket takes the view he looks over 16?

 

[yorkie]

I think that it is best to wait and see what the letter says.

If they have not already taken down his version of events, then they may well be requesting a statement.

If they have taken a statement at the time he was caught, then they may send a letter stating intent to prosecute. If they do then make sure you note what offence they are stating to prosecute for, as the Regulation of Railways Act - Section 5(3a) offence is far more serious (as it is recordable, ie appears on a CRB check) but requires them to prove intent. It may be sensible to offer to settle out of court, which may well be accepted for a first offence in a case like this.

I reckon most 16 year olds are likely to claim to be 15, that is based on my observations. However I do not think it is fair to say that it is likely or not if your son did this as none of us have any way to tell. I suspect LM__ is basing his guess on the balance of probabilities based on his experiences.

Why would a member of ticket office staff issue a child rate ticket without ANY prompting, when another member of staff checking the ticket takes the view he looks over 16?

In general you are right in that ticket office staff tend to be far stricter than on board staff in my experience. However not everyone is good at guessing if someone is 15 or 16 and it really is impossible to say. I think some rail staff are far too easily fooled into thinking people who are obviously 16, 17 or even 18+ are 15. There seems to be a disproportionate number of claimed 15 year olds who look a lot older than most 15 year olds on certain parts of the rail network!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I will add that there will be special circumstances in assessing this matter.

Once a request for a Statement explaining events has been received and replied to in all honesty, then Northern will decide whether to pursue the matter or not. I and others on here can assist with that advice and reccommend that you do ask for advice before returning the form (as people have a terrible habit of incriminating themselves with statements such as "don't know why because I did just as I have done every day for the past . . . .").

However, once that Statement has been returned, it is possible to enter into discussion with the Prosecutions Manager, and in this case, they can be persuaded that even if they do feel inclined to pursue the matter (which seems unlikely if there is no prior record of ticketing irregularities), that it would be contested and that I would propose to ask the Court to grant a Conditional Discharge in view of his age. This is sure to lead to Northern accepting some settlement of their administrative costs and closing the file.

 

[headshot119]

I don't know the individual circumstances here, or what exactly took place.

However from personal experience with a case of this with Northern, my advice would be to write a carefully worded letter* to Northern apologizing as much as possible for what has happened, and offer to compensate them for the loss in revenue and the trouble caused.

They certainly accepted that with my case and allowed the person to pay the difference between the Adult & Child fare.

Before sending the letter of you may wish to post it here and have it proof read.

*Do this once you have received the letter Northern are likely to send you asking for your version of events.

 

[34D]

I reckon most 16 year olds are likely to claim to be 15, that is based on my observations. However I do not think it is fair to say that it is likely or not if your son did this as none of us have any way to tell. I suspect LM__ is basing his guess on the balance of probabilities based on his experiences.

In general you are right in that ticket office staff tend to be far stricter than on board staff in my experience. However not everyone is good at guessing if someone is 15 or 16 and it really is impossible to say. I think some rail staff are far too easily fooled into thinking people who are obviously 16, 17 or even 18+ are 15. There seems to be a disproportionate number of claimed 15 year olds who look a lot older than most 15 year olds on certain parts of the rail network!

Isn't it the done thing when you are 16/17 to yo-yo from being 15 when buying a train/bus ticket to 18 when in the pub, then 15 for going home again?

If the OP's account is fully correct (which I don't doubt) then it seems very unfair of Northern to persue this, when their member of staff at Leeds ticket office was at fault.

Next time, advise your son to use a machine!

 

[mullin]

I actually know a fair few people who have been 17-19, asked for a single ticket when on a train and been sold a childs rate ticket with Northern, no questions asked of their age.

 

[34D]

I actually know a fair few people who have been 17-19, asked for a single ticket when on a train and been sold a childs rate ticket with Northern, no questions asked of their age.

This would presumably be the same northern who's ticket machines in WY, upon selecting an adult journey, then flash up with "a cheaper alternative is available" and recommend an OAP ticket?

 

[Anvil1984]

Isn't it the done thing when you are 16/17 to yo-yo from being 15 when buying a train/bus ticket to 18 when in the pub, then 15 for going home again?

If the OP's account is fully correct (which I don't doubt) then it seems very unfair of Northern to persue this, when their member of staff at Leeds ticket office was at fault.

Next time, advise your son to use a machine!

The they will use the machine to buy a childs ticket which definately doesnt ask for age and address. Too many times I have 16 - 18 on cross-boundary journeys with childs tickets on the belief that their WY 16 - 18 card is valid everywhere. Have had them going to Harrogate, Manchester etc then surprisingly they have no method to pay when you tell them they need to pay the difference to the correct fare.

 

[Dewedin]

The they will use the machine to buy a childs ticket which definately doesnt ask for age and address. Too many times I have 16 - 18 on cross-boundary journeys with childs tickets on the belief that their WY 16 - 18 card is valid everywhere. Have had them going to Harrogate, Manchester etc then surprisingly they have no method to pay when you tell them they need to pay the difference to the correct fare.

Cross-Boundary travel is extremely difficult for a 16 year old to understand. I even went to Manchester once when I was 16 on a child ticket using a Metro pass, I didn't know any better. Most children at that age are used to the pass allowing them a child fare.

 

[Urban Gateline]

The they will use the machine to buy a childs ticket which definately doesnt ask for age and address. Too many times I have 16 - 18 on cross-boundary journeys with childs tickets on the belief that their WY 16 - 18 card is valid everywhere. Have had them going to Harrogate, Manchester etc then surprisingly they have no method to pay when you tell them they need to pay the difference to the correct fare.

It's the same here in the London area, youngsters with a 16-17 Oyster Card sometimes want to purchase a child rate ticket when their Oyster card is found not to have any funds on it when they arrive at their destination station after having already travelled! Even better as this card proves they are over 15 so are liable to pay for an adult ticket!

 

[northwichcat]

He was pulled at Manchester and asked if he was a child, he said yes, but gave his age as sixteen.

If that was the exact question asked then he did not provide any incorrect information. A person under the age of 18 is a child even though for rail a person over the age of 16 is not permitted to travel on a child ticket.

In general you are right in that ticket office staff tend to be far stricter than on board staff in my experience. However not everyone is good at guessing if someone is 15 or 16 and it really is impossible to say. I think some rail staff are far too easily fooled into thinking people who are obviously 16, 17 or even 18+ are 15. There seems to be a disproportionate number of claimed 15 year olds who look a lot older than most 15 year olds on certain parts of the rail network!

It tends to the other way around in Cheshire.

Borderline people buying on the train sometimes get asked for their proof of age card, then look confused because they've never had one. While the ticket office staff seem to realise that these aren't issued to all kids in Cheshire like they are in Greater Manchester and Merseyside.

 

[jon0844]

If you can get cards in some areas that allow you to buy a child ticket from 16-17, I feel for any kids who aren't trying it on by getting a child ticket - if, for them, 16 or 17 does qualify them.

And the questioning needs to be precise. If you are under 18 where you could be considered a child (or perhaps young adult, which seems rather vague) then you could happily say you're a child when asked. So, asking the age is perhaps more important?

I guess there might be an absolute offence involved here, yet there's quite likely no intent and it's the mixture of rules and conditions that are really to blame.

The vast majority of people might be clued up and know perfectly well that they're buying a child ticket to which they're not entitled to, but any enforcement should only target those people and not scoop up innocent victims along the way.

 

[Sun!]

Ive know a 22 year old be given a childs ticket on a train before, so it wouldnt be exactly unknown, especially if he looks young. Guessing someones age is actually very difficult, you get 20 year olds that look 15 and 14 year olds that look past 18, and while many do try it on.
I wouldnt say your son did anything wrong. However ofcourse it under the railway byelaws he did, as said above wait for a letter to come and then try to make you case.

 

[Flamingo]

Isn't it the done thing when you are 16/17 to yo-yo from being 15 when buying a train/bus ticket to 18 when in the pub, then 15 for going home again?

If the OP's account is fully correct (which I don't doubt) then it seems very unfair of Northern to persue this, when their member of staff at Leeds ticket office was at fault.

Next time, advise your son to use a machine!

Strange post, first it says it is normal that 16 year olds will claim to be 15 to buy a fraudulent ticket, then goes on to say it is the fault of Leeds ticket office for selling a child ticket as the OP's account must be correct (despite the OP not being there when the ticket was bought).

Which one do you believe?

 

[34D]

Strange post, first it says it is normal that 16 year olds will claim to be 15 to buy a fraudulent ticket, then goes on to say it is the fault of Leeds ticket office for selling a child ticket as the OP's account must be correct (despite the OP not being there when the ticket was bought).

Which one do you believe?

What I may believe is irrelevant. The OP has come here as an honest father who trusts what his son has said - not my place to question that.

My first para was a follow-up to yorkie's post.

 

[CCJD]

Thanks for your views.
My son is adamant that he was not asked his age, and he was given a ticket, a child ticket, no other conversation took place. (so he says to me).He also says that there was other youths in the queue also asking for tickets. My son may be telling the truth, or lying, or the ticket kiosk was busy and he made his own judgement to reduce the queue, or the ticket attendant did say something but was not picked up by my son.
I agree with an earlier post that it is up to the individual to get it right, but in his eyes he did, I also think that it is the responsibility of the ticket attendants to be under no doubt what ticket they are selling before asking for money, child, concession, adult and this would involve asking for the actual age and making sure customers understand etc.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Your frankness does you justice.

When the letter arrives asking you for your Statement of events (your son's statement to be precise), then I would not include the accusation "I also think that it is the responsibility of the ticket attendants to . . . ".

Instead, and only if it is true, you could include a similar sentiment by way of mitigation, along the lines of "I am very sorry for the inconvenience and wonder if my error may have been to assume that it is the responsibility of the ticket attendants to . . . "

Admitting to an error which is not an Offence can often be a helpful strategy.

 

[CCJD]

Still no letter.

I have been reading 1889 regs and byelaws and it seems my son is doomed to obtaining a criminal record no matter what is said by him, the public.
He does not stand a chance with these laws, very upetting, a CR while you are still in education at a school, this should ensure that he never progresses in his life and a career, doubt he will get a job if this goes through in accordance with the regs, and its not his fault. (Contract law fault ???).
I know that railways need to get their money back and sort out genuine offenders but there does not seem to be a measure of fair play or sense.
Anybody at any time can slip up and make a mistake, even when you have done everything right you could still end up with a CR.

Do TOCs prosecute 16-17 year olds regardless of reason, apply the regs cold and straight, or do they balance and reason with the notes and implications for their future etc ?

Thanks for your notes to date

 

[Chapeltom]

It's been six weeks, it may be a sign that the case has actually been dropped. Although I'm not an expert, its good of you to update us all.

An analogy of mine with regards to age:
I've always been one to look younger than my age, I'm always borderline with everything. It is very difficult, I was in a shop yesterday looking to some alcohol and I was followed round by an assistant giving me strange looks, it was only when I went to the till and produced I.D that she took the look off her face. She clearly thought I was too young and I'm 20 later this year, at Uni and carrying a laptop bag round with me! I got the impression in my case she wouldn't believe my provisional licence and yes that has happened once before!

I can imagine the same thing happening with ticket offices, if you look younger than what you are its plausible a child ticket can be sold and I travelled with child tickets at 16, because I knew I looked 14-15. Yes I know, but it was only a few times, silly stupid. Got a 16-25 railcard just after and look back and feel very foolish. Although at 16, no-one's perfect.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have been reading 1889 regs and byelaws and it seems my son is doomed to obtaining a criminal record no matter what is said by him, the public.

Not so.
Several alternative outcomes are possible, including the possibility that no further action will be taken. Whilst it can be prudent to be prepared for the worst, please don't assume the worst!

Anyway, Byelaw Offences (if that is what is being prosecuted) should not result in a Criminal Record nor an entry on the Police National Computer (though it has happened), it is the 1889 RoRA Offences which, if sucessfully Prosecuted (and that requires evidence of 'intent' to travel without having paid) will result in those records of Conviction.

Can I refer you back to yorkie's post #6?