Northern Rail Fare Evasion

[Kanungu2012]

I must say I feel like I've slipped into the twilight zone. I usually board/alight from my daily commute to Manchester at one of two different stations (Wigan Wallgate or Gathurst), depending on the time of day. The particular day in question, I boarded the 09:32 from Wigan Wallgate to Stalybridge via Manchester Victoria. As Wigan is a staffed station, I went to by a return ticket. I asked for a Manchester return from Gathurst (Gathurst is the station before Wigan and the station I wanted to get off at that afternoon). At off peak times, a Manchester return from Wigan or Gathurst costs the same (£4.10). However, as it was only just after peak time, the price from Wigan was off peak but the price from Gathurst was still peak time - a difference of £6. I simply opted for a Manchester return from Wigan. On my journey back, I got off at Gathurst. I have done this many times before when my ticket has only taken me to Wigan, one stop before and bear in mind a Manchester return from either Wigan or Gathurst is the same price. Never has any conductor taken issue with this and all conductors I have spoken to have confirmed it is perfectly fine to do as long as I don't go past Gathurst. When I got off the train this time, I was greeted by a 'revenue protection officer'. I showed him my ticket and oh my god the pleasure on his face when he saw i had travelled past the station on my ticket. Despite my explanations to him ,he insisted on taking my details etc. Now I have a letter from Northern Rail threatening me with court action, fines etc. What should I do? I really cant understand how this situation has arisen, since they haven't lost any money, I certainly wasn't trying to dodge my fare (as a daily train user I despises fare dodgers) and I have done it countless times in the past without any conductors taking issue! Your thoughts, opinions and advice would be much appreciated!

 

[bb21]

You say that they haven't lost any money, but according to what you have just said, you bought a short ticket deliberately in order to avoid paying what you thought was the correct fare from Gathurst.

Your mistake, if I understand it correctly, is wrongly assuming that if buying from Gathurst it would cost you more. In fact you could have bought an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst to Manchester for £4.10 (valid after 0930 on weekdays) and started short at Wigan Wallgate. This is permitted as there is no "break of journey" restriction on this ticket.

So in fact, lucky for you, you have not paid less than what the correct fare is.

However technically you did travel over-distance without a valid ticket between Wigan Wallgate and Gathurst, so Northern may opt to prosecute, although in my opinion it would be very harsh for them to do so.

 

[Kanungu2012]

No they didn't lose any money from me - I was travelling from Wigan, and this was at 09:32, so the price was £4.10. I merely wanted a return from Gathurst so that if I were to get an overly zealous ticket inspector on the way back there would be no need to explain why my ticket only goes to Wigan. The time I bought the ticket was about 09:15, the next train to manchester was at 09:32 so therefore the price was off peak at £4.10. However, the same train called at Gathurst at 09:27 so the price was peak at around £10. Why should I pay and extra £6 for a peak time ticket when I'm not actually travelling from that station? May I also add that peak time returns are also the same price from Gathurst or Wigan - I hope this makes it clear that I was correct in assumiing that buying the ticket from Gathurst would have cost more - the lady selling the tickets even told me it would, and explained the reason for it. I fail to see the problem when I hold an off peak ticket and travel at off peak times, one station over what it says for exactly the same price. I have bought returns from Gathurst before and started short at Wigan, however this was when the train would be calling at Gathurst during an off peak period. I certainly did not intend to pay £6 extra for a peak time journey I was not making!

 

[34D]

You say that they haven't lost any money, but according to what you have just said, you bought a short ticket deliberately in order to avoid paying what you thought was the correct fare from Gathurst.

Your mistake, if I understand it correctly, is wrongly assuming that if buying from Gathurst it would cost you more. In fact you could have bought an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst to Manchester for £4.10 (valid after 0930 on weekdays) and started short at Wigan Wallgate. This is permitted as there is no "break of journey" restriction on this ticket.

I don't believe we have universal agreement on this point (ie whether or not "any train after 09:30" can be applied to a station other than the origin).

So in fact, lucky for you, you have not paid less than what the correct fare is.

However technically you did travel over-distance without a valid ticket between Wigan Wallgate and Gathurst, so Northern may opt to prosecute, although in my opinion it would be very harsh for them to do so.

Can they prosecute for a zero loss? We know they have prosecuted for 10p before.....

 

[talltim]

Can they prosecute for a zero loss? We know they have prosecuted for 10p before.....

Could they prosecute for the price of a single? In a way the ticket bought is irrelevant, it 'finished' at Wigan.

 

[185]

Could they prosecute for the price of a single? In a way the ticket bought is irrelevant, it 'finished' at Wigan.

At the time of evening back it may have been as low as 95p. (ECD)

That said, Northern in the past have mostly prosecuted overtravelling by instead citing the excess fare amount (hence the Leeds - Yorkshire Post 10p prosecution story).

Another point to raise is that down south, 'different origin' ticket machines are being slowly introduced, which are unheard of up north. Another thread covers this on here.

 

[Aldaniti]

I can sympathise with the OP on this as someone who once nearly found himself in a similar situation when, trying to book exactly the same ticket, from/to the same stations, the booking office staff refused to issue the ticket until 09.30 on the dot. Pure jobsworthery from a booking office that, over the years, hasn't generally been renowned for its helpfulness and customer focused attitude. I am no expert on ticket rules and regulations but as a previous poster said, the loss incurred is zero. How many courts - after applying common sense - would convict? Northern's best approach here would be to show some of that common sense.

 

[bb21]

No they didn't lose any money from me

But by your own admission your intention originally was not to pay the peak fare which you thought was due had you bought the correct ticket to start from Gathurst.

All academic now of course. I am not saying that as it turned out, the train company lost any money, as you only needed to buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst since you would be starting short and not using any service before 0930.

I fail to see the problem when I hold an off peak ticket and travel at off peak times, one station over what it says for exactly the same price. I have bought returns from Gathurst before and started short at Wigan, however this was when the train would be calling at Gathurst during an off peak period.

There is a massive difference. If you bought a Wigan ticket and travelled over-distance then without a shadow of doubt you do not have a valid ticket between Wigan and Gathurst. A ticket to Wigan expires once you reach Wigan. If you bought a Gathurst ticket and started short, this is explicitly permitted.

The fare being the same is not a valid argument. You could have obtained a zero-fare over-distance excess prior to boarding at Manchester, but you didn't.

I don't believe we have universal agreement on this point (ie whether or not "any train after 09:30" can be applied to a station other than the origin).

I believe most people experienced in ticketing matters on this forum agree with my interpretation.

Could they prosecute for the price of a single? In a way the ticket bought is irrelevant, it 'finished' at Wigan.

Some people believe that since the OP passed an opportunity before boarding on his return journey, a separate single fare is required from Wigan to Gathurst, so I guess they could. (Not that I agree with the principle of it.)

 

[142094]

Doesn't matter that the ticket cost the same from Gathurst as well as Wallgate, you did not have a valid ticket when asked. It might sound petty but it is perfectly acceptable for Northern to do what they have done.

 

[maniacmartin]

The train in question departs Gathurst at 09:27, then Wigan Wallgate at 09:32.

I presume the tickets are:
Gathurst - Manchester Central Zone CDR (£4.10)
Wigan Wallgate - Manchester Central Zone CDR (£4.10)

Both have restriction code B1:

OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays to
Fridays before 0930

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train

It's not perfectly clear whether you can board at a station down the line after 0930 on a train that left Gathurst before 0930. I believe that you can, in contrast to other restriction codes that mention the times that the train is at specific stations, and that the Gathurst ticket should have been sold.

However you bought the Wigan Wallgate ticket. For the return journey, you should have obtained an overdistance excess from the ticket office before travelling. This is calculated as the difference in fares, so £0.00 would have been due and a coupon would have been printed which would extend your existing ticket.

Some Train Operating Companies require ticket office clerks to fill in a lot of paperwork to issue such zero-fare excesses, so some staff refuse to issue them, so you may or not have been able to purchase one in central Manchester for your return journey. This may explain why many guards are happy for you to overtravel within the same fare cluster. However the rules are still that you should attempt to obtain such an excess before boarding, and failing that, from the guard.

I can't see Northern succeeding in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution, as they would need to prove intent to avoid the fare, but a zero fare was due for the excess anyway.
As for the less serious non-recordable Railway Byelaws, I believe you would technically be guilty of failing to hold a valid ticket, but it seems unreasonable to bring a case. That said, they have brought cases over very small sums before.

I'm not sure what the best advice here is, although you do have my sympathy.

 

[34D]

The train in question departs Gathurst at 09:27, then Wigan Wallgate at 09:32.

I presume the tickets are:
Gathurst - Manchester Central Zone CDR (£4.10)
Wigan Wallgate - Manchester Central Zone CDR (£4.10)

Both have restriction code B1:


It's not perfectly clear whether you can board at a station down the line after 0930 on a train that left Gathurst before 0930. I believe that you can, in contrast to other restriction codes that mention the times that the train is at specific stations, and that the Gathurst ticket should have been sold

I've started a separate thread to discuss this point, as it is peripheral to this thread, yet interesting to discuss further.

 

[Kanungu2012]

I'm not going to argue the 'haven't lost any money point from me' any longer. The fact is I boarded at Wigan, not Gathurst, and I paid the correct price from Wigan. I did not at any point during that day travel at a peak time period, so I have in no way avoided paying a fare. The price of a ticket from Gathurst is exactly the same, so I really cannot see the point here. My biggest issue with this is that I have done this many times before, and not once has any conductor had a problem with it - they have said it is perfectly acceptable to do so. In fact, they said I could even travel as far as Appley Bridge (the station after Gathurst) on a ticket ending at Wigan, since the price of a return is again the same from Appley Bridge. Why, after over three years of being told this is perfectly acceptable, does a single member of staff suddenly turn around and say its a criminal offence? This morning I asked the ticket lady at Wigan about it, and again she confirmed that as far as she could see I had done nothing wrong.

 

[bb21]

I'm not going to argue the 'haven't lost any money point from me' any longer.

No one said that they had lost money, but that is only by virtual of the fact that your initial assumptions are incorrect so you are a very lucky man/woman in that respect. I am also not prepared to discuss this any more as it is not a burning issue for you at the moment.

The fact is I boarded at Wigan, not Gathurst, and I paid the correct price from Wigan.

The fact is that you have a ticket that expires at Wigan Wallgate. There are ways the situation can be remedied without you having to pay extra which I have already mentioned above. If you cannot see that your ticket which says "To Wigan Stations" expires at Wigan Wallgate then I cannot help you any further.

My biggest issue with this is that I have done this many times before, and not once has any conductor had a problem with it - they have said it is perfectly acceptable to do so. In fact, they said I could even travel as far as Appley Bridge (the station after Gathurst) on a ticket ending at Wigan, since the price of a return is again the same from Appley Bridge. Why, after over three years of being told this is perfectly acceptable, does a single member of staff suddenly turn around and say its a criminal offence? This morning I asked the ticket lady at Wigan about it, and again she confirmed that as far as she could see I had done nothing wrong.

For that you have my sympathy, and I have stated for the record that I would find it very harsh if Northern do decide to prosecute. I think it would be wrong for them to do so since they have not suffered any monetary loss, as it turned out.

What you do not seem to grasp however is that you do not have a valid ticket between Wigan Wallgate and Gathurst. You can't dispute that. While a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act may well fail since there is no monetary loss, they may well succeed under a Byelaw prosecution. I do not agree with it but as a matter of fact you did not hand over a valid ticket when requested so you are technically guilty, regardless of how unfair you feel it is.

 

[455driver]

Surely if the passenger is using the break of journey rules to start short then the trains they use should allow for the time taken to break the journey?

It would be impossible (on an off peak ticket) to start at Gathurst, break the journey at Wigan and then continue on the 0932 from Wigan.

I know everyone on here likes to use every conceivable loophole or (mis)interpretation of du rools against the railway but surely to use the break of journey rules you should allow time to actually break the journey.

 

[londonbridge]

I'm not going to argue the 'haven't lost any money point from me' any longer. The fact is I boarded at Wigan, not Gathurst, and I paid the correct price from Wigan. I did not at any point during that day travel at a peak time period, so I have in no way avoided paying a fare. The price of a ticket from Gathurst is exactly the same, so I really cannot see the point here. My biggest issue with this is that I have done this many times before, and not once has any conductor had a problem with it - they have said it is perfectly acceptable to do so. In fact, they said I could even travel as far as Appley Bridge (the station after Gathurst) on a ticket ending at Wigan, since the price of a return is again the same from Appley Bridge. Why, after over three years of being told this is perfectly acceptable, does a single member of staff suddenly turn around and say its a criminal offence? This morning I asked the ticket lady at Wigan about it, and again she confirmed that as far as she could see I had done nothing wrong.

Just because you have done something many times before with no-one quereying it (sp?) doesn't necessairily make it right. I used to work in one of the major supermarkets, on Friday or Saturday the new release videos/dvds/cds to be put on sale the following Monday would be delivered. The goods-in guy would pull out copies of anything he wanted to buy and put them through the till on Saturday so he was buying them early. Whether his line manager never knew or just turned a blind eye I'm not sure, but he kept doing it until a new manager caught him and put him on a disciplinary. When he argued that his old manager had never said anything, the response was 'well I'm not the old manager and we could get in serious trouble for this so never do it again'. I believe there was a case where one supermarket was actually 'done' for putting a new video on the shelves for sale two days before it's actual release date.

 

[bb21]

I know everyone on here likes to use every conceivable loophole or (mis)interpretation of du rools against the railway but surely to use the break of journey rules you should allow time to actually break the journey.

But he wasn't breaking his journey, he was starting short, which is explicitly permitted.

 

[455driver]

But he wasn't breaking his journey, he was starting short, which is explicitly permitted.

But can you start short on an earlier train than you could have caught from the original station?

 

[34D]

Surely if the passenger is using the break of journey rules to start short then the trains they use should allow for the time taken to break the journey?

It would be impossible (on an off peak ticket) to start at Gathurst, break the journey at Wigan and then continue on the 0932 from Wigan.

I know everyone on here likes to use every conceivable loophole or (mis)interpretation of du rools against the railway but surely to use the break of journey rules you should allow time to actually break the journey.

Please comment on the separate thread as linked shortly above your previous post.

 

[maniacmartin]

On the day that you travelled, did the ticket office staff also state that you could overtravel on that day's ticket on the return portion? If so, you could argue that you were given permission to travel by an authorised member of railway staff, which negates the need to have a ticket. Proving what was said could be near-impossible however.

 

[bb21]

But can you start short on an earlier train than you could have caught from the original station?

I don't think there is a definitive answer for that.

That said, I can't see how you would not be allowed to do so provided that you have obeyed all time restrictions as set out by the restriction text.

There is no mention that the time restriction applies to a train that leaves the origin on the ticket after 0930. The OP did not travel before 0930. Whether you look at it literally or consider what the TOC's intentions were, I don't see how one can possibly arrive at the conclusion that the ticket is only valid on trains leaving the origin after 0930. We have been through this before and I believe that the majority opinion is that it applies to when you actually travel, unless stated otherwise, but we may never have consensus until this issue is clarified by ATOC. (I may send them a query.)

 

[jkdd77]

Personally, I'm not convinced that ATOC, as a organisation of profit-maximising TOCs (some of whom appear to specialise in creating FUD in relation to perceived 'loopholes') can be trusted to provide a definitive answer. In my view, it would ultimately be for a court to decide the meaning of the restriction code and contract for travel, and I suspect that, as with FCC's recent court defeat, most TOCs would not be keen to have a court rule on this specific matter.

In relation to the OP, it could be argued that his/her contract for travel ended at Wigan (not having previously paid the zero-fare excess), and that, therefore, he/she would then be technically guilty of fare evasion by not paying for a Wigan- Gathurst single and travelling from Wigan to Gathurst without the intention to pay this fare.

 

[Kanungu2012]

Thank you everyone for your advice and opinions. On my train back today, I witnessed another passenger ask the guard could she buy an extention from Wigan to Appley Bridge. The guard told her it was fine as the Wigan ticket cost the same. I'm afraid this was the last straw. So when I got home I rang Northern Rail prosecutions, explained my situation blah blah blah... long story short I finally got to speak to a manager/supervisor, who after hearing my story have decided to make arrangements to drop the accusations against me. They agreed that there was no problem in travelling this extra distance as the cost was the same, again reflecting what I have been told by every single member of Northern Rail staff in the past. They apologised that there RPO may have been a little over zealous in the execution of his duties. So again, thanks everyone!

 

[bb21]

Nice one. I'm glad that common sense prevailed.

Next time, just buy a ticket from Gathurst so you avoid the problems you encountered this time.

 

[Kanungu2012]

I'm also glad that common sense prevailed, some of my faith in Northern rail has been restored: something I did not think possible after three years of using their services. Not to be pedantic, but I certainly wont be paying an extra £6 (should i get a jobs worth who insists on charging me peak time even though I will not be travelling at peak time), since the guy from the prosecutions (and every other staff member) seems to agree that the RPO was being over zealous and this issue was caused by him and not my attempts to avoid a fare. Once again, thank you to you all.

 

[bb21]

But you don't need to pay the extra £6. As I explained to you earlier, if you need to use the 0932 from Wigan Wallgate and return to Gathurst, just buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst. OK there is no definitive consensus amongst all forum members that it is valid, but senior members are more or less in agreement that it should be valid, and imo it would be madness for them not to accept it (or sell it if you explain that you would like to return to Gathurst).

Failing that, you can buy the Wigan Wallgate ticket, and ask for an over-distance excess to Gathurst at the ticket office in Manchester (whichever station you use) on the way back. This should cost nothing as the fare is the same, and help you avoid the situation you encountered this time. However this is more of a faff than simply buying the Gathurst ticket so I hope it won't come to that.

 

[tony6499]

But you don't need to pay the extra £6. As I explained to you earlier, if you need to use the 0932 from Wigan Wallgate and return to Gathurst, just buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst. OK there is no definitive consensus amongst all forum members that it is valid, but senior members are more or less in agreement that it should be valid, and imo it would be madness for them not to accept it (or sell it if you explain that you would like to return to Gathurst).

Failing that, you can buy the Wigan Wallgate ticket, and ask for an over-distance excess to Gathurst at the ticket office in Manchester (whichever station you use) on the way back. This should cost nothing as the fare is the same, and help you avoid the situation you encountered this time. However this is more of a faff than simply buying the Gathurst ticket so I hope it won't come to that.

If you have a OP return from Gathurst any RPI/Conductor may deduce you have boarded there and therefore your ticket is not valid on that particular train

 

[Kanungu2012]

But you don't need to pay the extra £6. As I explained to you earlier, if you need to use the 0932 from Wigan Wallgate and return to Gathurst, just buy an Off-Peak Day Return from Gathurst.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post - I did initially try to buy an off peak day return from Gathurst. However, the lady in the ticket office, for whatever reason, point blank refused to sell me one as the train would leave Gathurst at a peak time. As such, I was left with no choice but to buy a return from Wigan. However, thank you for your suggestion about the no cost excess - I did not know about these before!

 

[bb21]

If you have a OP return from Gathurst any RPI/Conductor may deduce you have boarded there and therefore your ticket is not valid on that particular train

Yes, but the ticket would show that it was printed at Wigan and if it was bought just before travel, the time it was printed, together with the NLC code of the place the ticket was printed, would show that he couldn't have possibly boarded at Gathurst.

 

[sheff1]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post - I did initially try to buy an off peak day return from Gathurst. However, the lady in the ticket office, for whatever reason, point blank refused to sell me one as the train would leave Gathurst at a peak time.

Yes, I thought that was the situation. Unfortunately, despite ATOC making it clear that off peak tickets can be bought at any time (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46548.aspx) some booking clerks take it upon themselves to refuse a sale.

If you were attempting to buy a ticket at Wallgate just before the 0932 departure it should be perfectly obvious that you could not physically get to Gathurst to catch a train before 0930. Even if you could, that would be no reason to refuse a sale - they should merely advise you of the time restriction.

If this happens again, I suggest you go down the zero cost excess route explained. If it happens frequently you may wish to make a complaint to Northern.

 

[jon0844]

Can you buy your ticket online and print it out on a TVM?