Northern rail - fare evasion

[Gwood]

Ok, so I know I was extremely stupid and this is my first post on here after reading from a few other people's posts I'd really like some advice, and would appreciate any that is forthcoming. Thank you.

Last night I caught the northern rail service from slaithwaite to Manchester Victoria, there was no ticket inspector/guard on the train. I got off the train and went straight away to pay for a ticket. I paid but only from Ashton. I don't know what came over me or why I said this and am thoroughly regretting it now.

I was pulled aside by a man saying he was from Northern Rail loss prevention or something similar. He asked me where I got on, I said Ashton and he asked me how I got onto the platform. I mumbled something about across the tracks and he asked if I used the stairs or the ramp. I said stairs and he told me there aren't any at which point I admitted that I got on at slaithwaite and would be happy to pay the full fare. He declined and took some information from me:

Name and address, which I supplied from ID and is correct
If I take the journey regulary, which is a no. I don't.
And my reason for saying Ashton. I panicked and just said it was cheaper. I genuinely don't know why I said Ashton but I can see that it probably will now be seen this way in court regardless.
He noted my general appearance and asked me to sign both the ticket and his notes, so I did. By this point I was shaking and it took two attempts

I offered to pay a fine there and then too. This is a first offence and I completely understand that I'm in the wrong and Northern Rail now have all the evidence they probably need to prosecute because of one terribly stupid mistake on my part. I feel like an idiot and I assume you all think I'm an idiot too. Throughout I was polite and listened and answered everything correctly aside from the most important first question.

I was told to expect a letter and that I should reply to it ASAP or this would become a criminal matter but I wasn't told what would happen further than that.

From the information I've got off this site (which is excellent btw) I think I should be expected to write a statement in reply. I will state the above, apologise, offer ticket costs plus admin fee and an out of court settlement fee - I was thinking about £100 (is that too low?) I will explain that this will not happen again and I'm willing for them to keep the letter as a record in case it does (which it won't!) and that they can use it in court if I do.

Should I offer anything further?

The one thing I'm really concerned about is getting a criminal record over something so stupid. I admit that I am fully guilty of fare evasion but this certainly won't happen again.

As I said at the start of this if anyone could offer me any further advice that would be great. I've never been in any kind of trouble before and I don't want this to ruin any potential career aspirations I may have in the future. This is a late post because I can't sleep for worrying!

Thank you in advance

 

[mathmo]

I don't think you can do anything for the time being. You will just have to wait for a letter to arrive (other threads show this can take six weeks or more). When you receive that letter you can consider your options and ask for advice on here, though from other threads what you state above sounds likely.

There are many other threads with similar Northern Rail cases in this forum that you could read, but you would probably be wasting your time before you hear back from them. Just learn your lesson for now.

 

[Gwood]

Thank you, I didn't realise it could take so long

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with your assessment, from reading about other people's incidents, of what would be appropriate to consider putting in your reply, and yes, that opportunity could be some weeks away - and maybe sooner.

However, the following sentence is an unwise remark to make at this stage, even if you do believe it to be true and correct:

I admit that I am fully guilty of fare evasion . . . .

You will probably also have read that there is a tendency for Northern to accept a settlement for those being investigated for the first-time, and that does not require an expressed admission of guilt of Fare Evasion.

 

[Ferret]

You will probably also have read that there is a tendency for Northern to accept a settlement for those being investigated for the first-time, and that does not require an expressed admission of guilt of Fare Evasion.

That would certainly be the best outcome for the OP. My opinion here is that this falls well within the remit of the more serious of the 2 main railway ticketing offences - that being s5 of the Regulation of Railways Act, which carries a criminal record upon conviction. What concerns me is that it appears at this stage to be a very simple case for the railway company to win if they took it to Court, so they may not be willing to offer the £80 admin charge and warning that they have issued to others.

Were I in the OP's shoes here, I'd be trying to ensure that this does not reach Court by offering to settle the matter beforehand, purely to avoid the consequences of a conviction. You'll have to wait for the correspondence from Northern to see how they intend to proceed - if they offer you the chance to settle, then bite their hand off and don't do it again!

 

[Greenback]

Personally, I would not offer any particular amount, I would instead offer to pay such a sum Northern feel would cover the cost of the fare, the administrative costs and a contribution towards the incovenience I have caused.

 

[Monty]

That would certainly be the best outcome for the OP. My opinion here is that this falls well within the remit of the more serious of the 2 main railway ticketing offences - that being s5 of the Regulation of Railways Act, which carries a criminal record upon conviction. What concerns me is that it appears at this stage to be a very simple case for the railway company to win if they took it to Court, so they may not be willing to offer the £80 admin charge and warning that they have issued to others.

Were I in the OP's shoes here, I'd be trying to ensure that this does not reach Court by offering to settle the matter beforehand, purely to avoid the consequences of a conviction. You'll have to wait for the correspondence from Northern to see how they intend to proceed - if they offer you the chance to settle, then bite their hand off and don't do it again!

x2 with the evidence they (Northern) have collected it would be a relatively simple s5 3(a) prosecution, which as already mentioned upon conviction carries a criminal record. I echo Ferret's sentiments and urge the OP wait until the receive correspondence from Northern Rail, and then go from there. A generous settlement offer to keep the matter out of court maybe required to placate them however.

 

[Gwood]

I do appreciate everything said already in this thread, thank you.

This has kind of confirmed what I've expected and now it's just the waiting that is killing me. I was (on advice given to me in a PM) thinking of calling their prosecutions dept tomorrow and trying to offer to pay something there and then in order to save northern rail the admin, time and effort with this. I am truly sorry and will never do this again and would just like the matter clearing up either way as soon as possible.

What a mess I've created here.

 

[Dave1987]

I do appreciate everything said already in this thread, thank you.

This has kind of confirmed what I've expected and now it's just the waiting that is killing me. I was (on advice given to me in a PM) thinking of calling their prosecutions dept tomorrow and trying to offer to pay something there and then in order to save northern rail the admin, time and effort with this. I am truly sorry and will never do this again and would just like the matter clearing up either way as soon as possible.

What a mess I've created here.

I don't know whether calling them is necessary. I think waiting for the letter to arrive to see how Northern are going to treat your case would be better. In the letter they may give you a hint as to how much they would expect as a payment to keep it from going to court. I would def echo what others have said and wait for the correspondence fom Nothern and then come back to the forum for advice. There are quite a few people on this forum who are very knowledgable in legal matters.

 

[island]

I believe Northern's usual practice is to ask for £80 plus the fare avoided.

 

[455driver]

I wouldnt call them, I would wait for the letter because only once you see what you are actually being accused of can the matter of your "offer" be made.

Sit tight (stew over how silly you were) and wait, they never rush the letters out (they like you to be well stewed ) so I would recommend writing down the facts and any conversation you had with the RPI, in-
He said "abc"
I said "def"
etc format.

Its just a waiting game I am afraid.

 

[Ediswan]

I would recommend writing down the facts and any conversation you had with the RPI, in-
He said "abc"
I said "def"
etc format.

Write down what you recall as soon as you can. Memory fades very quickly.

I can recall a situation where myself and a friend could not agree on the true facts as little as four hours after the event.

We wanted to agree. No risk of fine or prosecution. There had been a risk of death. When stressed, details are very easily confused or forgotten.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I was (on advice given to me in a PM) thinking of calling their prosecutions dept tomorrow and trying to offer to pay something there and then in order to save northern rail the admin, time and effort with this. . . . . .

You may do so, but it is my experience that their Prosecutor will usually say that they will require more time to process the paperwork and get to any particular incident in the file (a.k.a. pile). He then be likely to go on to say that they are not looking for money at this stage and ask you to wait until they do get round to entering your incident into the system and gathering Statments before writing to you to put their intentions to you and inviting your comment to inform their decision as to how to deal with the incident.

Perhaps the person who sent you the PM has different experiences or knowledge of the Department's procedures.

 

[neilmc]

This seems to happen a lot with Northern and I wonder quite why the RPI pulled the passenger aside and didn't believe his assertion that he boarded at Ashton - surely there are likely to be more passengers boarding a train to Manchester from Ashton than Slaithwaite, a small station across the Pennines?

So is this constantly happening to passengers who board at stations close to Manchester - if I boarded a train at Ashton, didn't get sold a ticket and was disbelieved about my station of origin to the extent that I was asked to describe the station layout I think I'd get very angry, especially if it kept happening!

Too late in this case and sadly every time this happens it justify's Northern's reluctance to provide proper ticketing facilities as the costs to avoid prosecution clearly cover any saving the passeneger might have hoped to make several times over!

 

[calc7]

This seems to happen a lot with Northern and I wonder quite why the RPI pulled the passenger aside and didn't believe his assertion that he boarded at Ashton - surely there are likely to be more passengers boarding a train to Manchester from Ashton than Slaithwaite, a small station across the Pennines?

So is this constantly happening to passengers who board at stations close to Manchester - if I boarded a train at Ashton, didn't get sold a ticket and was disbelieved about my station of origin to the extent that I was asked to describe the station layout I think I'd get very angry, especially if it kept happening!

Too late in this case and sadly every time this happens it justify's Northern's reluctance to provide proper ticketing facilities as the costs to avoid prosecution clearly cover any saving the passeneger might have hoped to make several times over!

Possibly they could have had, at Ashton:
- a working ticket machine or open ticket office
- RPIs checking tickets on entry to the station
- the "token" system in place - everyone boarding at Ashton is given a piece of paper; anybody at Manchester trying to buy a ticket from Ashton and not in possession of the token has presumably travelled from further out.
- (unlikely) the guard confirmed nobody boarded at Ashton
Any or all of these would make it easy for the RPI.

 

[142094]

The problem lies with the fact that ticket offices were closed down in the days of BR - hence the advent of Pay Trains where you bought the ticket on board. Even in the days of Regional Railways they would let you buy your ticket on board even at stations with a booking office, and this continued after privatisation. A few years back Northern decided to clamp down on this, which of course is now catching people out.

 

[island]

It's not like they haven't been giving fair warning though!

 

[142094]

It's not like they haven't been giving fair warning though!

Well, depends on who you talk to!

A recent incident I observed on a Northern service:

Pax boards train at station with ticket office and ticket machines, asks for F+F railcard discount. Guard rightly states that he has to pay full fare on board. Pax says that he always buys on the train with the railcard discount. Guard still refuses. Pax calls guard a racist.

Suffice to say later that day I contacted Northern to let them know what actually happened, how the member of staff had handled the situation and that the passenger in question was the aggressor, and not the victim of anything race-related.

A few guards will let people off but explain that they have to buy at the station with the railcard. I haven't seen a guard in a good few years that has given the railcard discount without argument where the passenger has boarded at a staffed station.

 

[AndyLandy]

I was (on advice given to me in a PM) thinking of calling their prosecutions dept tomorrow

As a general observation, I'd wonder why this advice was presented in PM rather than in the thread. By and large, if a discussion is kept public in a thread, you can "crowdsource" common themes from different people.

Of course, there may be good reasons for sending a PM, but unless I had reason to trust the sender, I'd be reluctant to take advice from a PM, particularly if the same sentiment is not being echoed by those answering in public.

Just a thought.