Northern Rail FAQs

[thenorthern]

Has anyone notices this on the Northern Rail website:

Why don't you buy extra trains, or replace old ones?

When Northern Rail started in 2004, it was assumed by the Government and the Department for Transport (DfT) that there would be no growth in passenger demand, there would be no change in the number and type of trains needed, and therefore there was no planned investment in more trains or new train services.

These were the limitations of the franchise we were awarded but despite this, in 2011 we introduced sixty additional carriages across the Northern network, through partnership with the DfT.

These additional carriages help ease overcrowding; however, we know that there is more to be done. Unfortunately, it is unlikely we will receive additional carriages in the short term, as at present there is no suitable spare rolling stock available in the rail industry. However, in the longer term, the introduction of new carriages to other parts of the country, and electrification projects in the North West, are likely to result in more trains being made available for our network.

http://www.northernrail.org/northern/faqs/on-the-train#faq3

Is it just me of does it seem strange that a rail company has to explain to its passengers why they have old stock and why their trains are overcrowded through an Faq on their website. Does any other company have a question like this on their website?

I always find Northern Rail are too passive when it comes to complaints about their stock though. In my opinion they should be more "We would like new trains but the government dosen't think we should get new trains" when passengers start complaining and using the #NorthernFail.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If Northern are frequently asked the question why don’t they get more or newer stock then an answer on their frequently asked questions page seems entirely appropriate.

Constantly blaming the government, as you suggest, would be inappropriate, not entirely truthful, and counterproductive. You may believe there is no place for tact and the best solution for everything is to say ‘not me gov’ but it isn’t – ever heard of biting the hand that feeds you?

 

[alexl92]

If Northern are frequently asked the question why don’t they get more or newer stock then an answer on their frequently asked questions page seems entirely appropriate.

Constantly blaming the government, as you suggest, would be inappropriate, not entirely truthful, and counterproductive. You may believe there is no place for tact and the best solution for everything is to say ‘not me gov’ but it isn’t – ever heard of biting the hand that feeds you?

It's closer to the truth than most of their excuses.

 

[strowger]

A TOC which takes a harshly anti-government line is endangering its owners prospects in the next franchise round - and for any other public-sector contracts.

In the real world, where railways are run at an enormous loss and rolling stock is very expensive, the main reason that TOCs still exist is to allow the government and DfT bureaucracy to escape blame.

If the ludicrously uneconomic bits of the rail network were all directly state-operated, *lots* of blame, shouting, and angry rants on twitter would land with the government instead of the TOC.

As we've found, the government is perfectly able to operate rail services for long periods when it suits them to. It doesn't suit them to when the services in question are under-funded and poor quality.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone tell me exactly what type of units Northern Rail will be using on the Todmorden Chord line from Manchester to Blackburn...and when?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sprinters or Pacers. Sometime in 2015.

More seriously, it'll probably be 142, 150 or 156 units and as the 319s are currently due to start running in February (according to the MD), I suspect that's when units for the curve will become available.

 

[tbtc]

Is it just me of does it seem strange that a rail company has to explain to its passengers why they have old stock and why their trains are overcrowded through an Faq on their website

Long answer: Northern are in a tricky position.

Some services a pretty busy (though never in the "top ten"/ "bottom ten" lists), but they require a subsidy of roughly 50p per passenger mile/ a million pounds a day/ 50% of the operating costs...

...so whilst they have increased capacity by something like 30%, it may hard to find a case for ordering brand new DMUs (and we all know that there's no spare DMUs sat around), so little chance of getting new stock.

Some TOCs can build a propaganda campaign to "pressure" the political paymasters into further investment/subsidy (Holyrood, Cardiff Bay, TfL), but there's no one organisation for them to plead to.

We'll get "Rail North" before long - maybe Northern (or their successor/s) will be able to pressurise them for the money for more stock (in the way that there's little point in trying to pressurise SYPTE for more cash since they have few powers).

Otherwise, any chance of extra DMU capacity on Northern routes is dependant upon events controlled by others - mainly the speed of electrification in their neck of the woods and elsewhere (plus Thameslink2000 finally being completed, to release 319s).

No new DMUs are being built, they are still tied in to franchise terms from over a decade ago, the services that they run are deeply unprofitable... what would you do if you were in charge? (am sure that'll attract some unrealistic/ facetious replies, of course)

Short Answer: Northern have to deal with some pretty miserable passengers who are going to complain more than average, so makes sense for them to have some kind of pre-emptive message for those complaining

Can someone tell me exactly what type of units Northern Rail will be using on the Todmorden Chord line from Manchester to Blackburn...and when?

This service will be an extension of the current Wigan - Manchester - Todmorden service, as far as I am aware (?)...

...so presumably it'll get the same stock that runs that service?

Northern obviously haven't been able to run this service because the infrastructure has been delayed and delayed and delayed - maybe it'll start next year.

We both know this, of course.

 

[3141]

We'll get "Rail North" before long - maybe Northern (or their successor/s) will be able to pressurise them for the money for more stock (in the way that there's little point in trying to pressurise SYPTE for more cash since they have few powers).

In the Greater Manchester area local authorities are going to get more money devolved to them so that they can decide their spending priorities, including some aspects of transport. I'm aware of this in a general way, but I don't know any details.

The local authorities will probably be pleased to be able to take more decisions locally, but they will have to determine their priorities and there will be other things competing for some of the money that might be spent on rail services. This does not necessarily mean that rail can expect to see improvements.

 

[Bevan Price]

In the Greater Manchester area local authorities are going to get more money devolved to them so that they can decide their spending priorities, including some aspects of transport. I'm aware of this in a general way, but I don't know any details.

The local authorities will probably be pleased to be able to take more decisions locally, but they will have to determine their priorities and there will be other things competing for some of the money that might be spent on rail services. This does not necessarily mean that rail can expect to see improvements.

And I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Greater Manchester preferred spending any spare funds on more Metrolink extensions and misguided busways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Greater Manchester preferred spending any spare funds on more Metrolink extensions and misguided busways.

Have TfGM actually planned for any others of the style of the ilk of the Leigh Guided Busway in any of their forward planning documents that have entered into the public domain ?

The current Metrolink Second City Crossing and the projected Trafford Centre/Port Salford Metrolink line seem to be enough to keep TfGM going in the foreseeable future on that particular mode of public transport.

The seemingly ever-extended time schedule for the Sheffield/Rotherham area trials of tram-train units is an item that a number of interested transport bodies are waiting for the evaluation of those trials to have actually taken place.

 

[WatcherZero]

At the moment near term the extra platforms at salford central and fighting for rolling stock, possible extension of trafford centre line to port salford and eccles. In the longer term they are waiting on the tram-train pilot with plans for a package of new lines around the airport linking altrincham and stockport along with the hs2 stations that would be shovel ready moment sheffield trial is done. They were working on a program of orbital bus routes linking the towns via the m60 but had to be shelved with the government austerity cuts to bus funding. Next thing in bus would be subject to consultation they have been granted the power to reregulate the bus network ala London.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This service will be an extension of the current Wigan - Manchester - Todmorden service, as far as I am aware (?)......so presumably it'll get the same stock that runs that service?

Northern obviously haven't been able to run this service because the infrastructure has been delayed and delayed and delayed - maybe it'll start next year. We both know this, of course.

Just to think that in the old days, you could have used the services on the northern line portion of the Lancashire Union Railway to go direct from Wigan to Blackburn (via Chorley) without the need for this very long route diversion.

Incidentally, how many extra units will be needed (if any) to allow for the onward journey from Todmorden up the Copy Pit line then onwards via Accrington to Blackburn if they wish to keep the same service frequency of the Wigan service there, as I should imagine there will be quite a period of time needed to allow service continuation from Todmorden onwards to Blackburn.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Incidentally, how many extra units will be needed (if any) to allow for the onward journey from Todmorden up the Copy Pit line then onwards via Accrington to Blackburn if they wish to keep the same service frequency of the Wigan service there, as I should imagine there will be quite a period of time needed to allow service continuation from Todmorden onwards to Blackburn.

One unit (minimum).

 

[Chrisgr31]

In the Greater Manchester area local authorities are going to get more money devolved to them so that they can decide their spending priorities, including some aspects of transport. I'm aware of this in a general way, but I don't know any details.

The local authorities will probably be pleased to be able to take more decisions locally, but they will have to determine their priorities and there will be other things competing for some of the money that might be spent on rail services. This does not necessarily mean that rail can expect to see improvements.

Are they getting more money, or the same money but just freedom in choosing how they spend it?

 

[northwichcat]

Can someone tell me exactly what type of units Northern Rail will be using on the Todmorden Chord line from Manchester to Blackburn...and when?

Sprinters or Pacers. Sometime in 2015.

More seriously, it'll probably be 142, 150 or 156 units and as the 319s are currently due to start running in February (according to the MD), I suspect that's when units for the curve will become available.

Northern are expecting to complete the final stage of crew training between February and May 2015 with the idea of the Todmorden services being extended to Blackburn from the May 2015 timetable change. One of the units released from the Airport-Liverpool service will indirectly allow for the extra diagram required. The extra diagram will probably be a 150. Northern are apparently going to try and reduce the number of 2 carriage services which are operated by a 142 as a result of electrification cascades and are reserving the 156s for the busiest diagrams which can't be strengthened to 4 car.
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Some services a pretty busy (though never in the "top ten"/ "bottom ten" lists)

A senior person in the rail industry once pointed out a Pacer operated service could never top the DfT list as long as there were overcrowded services on southern routes as it would be impossible to get a standard class load factor as high as has been achieved on Desiros (the service at the top of the list is quite often a Desiro operated service.)

A number of Northern services are actually ineligible for the DfT most overcrowded trains list and passenger counts of some services would seem to indicate if they were eligible Northern would have services challenging for the 8th, 9th and 10th place on that list. The Northern services which are eligible for that list are generally PTE supported services so are the first to get extra capacity when it becomes available and as you're usually quick to point out when someone makes the 'no growth' claim Northern have received additional carriages to strengthen some services.

With Northern it'd also be interesting to see exactly how the stats are recorded. MCRUA recorded the average loading in school term time on arrival in Knutsford as 278 passengers. That service is booked for a 2 car 150. However, Northern have different types of 150 interior and don't diagram the different types of interior differently.

So one day an ex-FNW 150/1 could turn up (which can take 182 passengers seated + standing before being officially classed as overcrowded) - so if the average number of passengers use the train that day that's 96 in excess of capacity so a Standard class load factor of 153%, on a par with the FGW 07:00 Oxford to London Paddington which is in DfT's top 10 most overcrowded trains list but not an eligible service for that list.

On the other hand an ex-LM 150/2 could turn up (which can take 201 passengers seated + standing before being officially classed as overcrowded), that would give a Standard class load factor of 138%, too low for DfT's top 10 most overcrowded trains list even if it was eligible.

If you take the average number of seats then you get a meaningless academic figure. And that's assuming the booked traction turns up every day - which doesn't always happen with Northern.

Also it's worth remembering the seated + standing figure is only used where the gap between stations is under 20 minutes, so a 2 car Northern service arriving in Leeds in the morning peak could have more standing than than a 3 car TPE service from Manchester which didn't call at Dewsbury but the latter would be classed as more overcrowded.
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When Northern Rail started in 2004, it was assumed by the Government and the Department for Transport (DfT) that there would be no growth in passenger demand, there would be no change in the number and type of trains needed

This actually contradicts what Northern said in the early days of the franchise.

Early on they explored the option of a cheap CSRE train being used a direct Pacer train replacement.

After that idea was dropped they said that while they were not going to order any new trains they expected to replace the majority of their 142s with Sprinters released by other TOCs over the course of the franchise. They started that process by withdrawing 12 x 142s after receiving a cascade of 158s as a result of TPE receiving 185s. Obviously with rising passenger numbers that didn't prove possible.

 

[3141]

Are they getting more money, or the same money but just freedom in choosing how they spend it?

That's what I feel a bit guilty about not knowing. Ithink they were going to get more money - whose allocation would previously have been decided centrally. I ought to investigate, but I'm hoping someone else will be more enthusiastic about doing so than I am!