Northern rail 'Failure to Purchase'

[Gspaddock]

Hello,

I've read some good threads on here offering lots of advice and I was hoping you could help me.

In November 2014 I was stopped at ticket checks at Manchester Piccadilly and produced an out of date ticket (the previous days) and received an £80 + ticket price settlement. I provided a bank statement showing purchase of ticket for that day (which I didn't show) so they waived the ticket price but said the bank statement doesn't show what time the ticket was purchased that day so still getting fined £80. Fair enough, fine paid case closed.

My monthly pass had expired yesterday and I wouldn't buy my next one so close to the weekend (I don't use it at weekends) so decided to buy a return for today only. Because of works on the line and having to get earlier train (I'm not going to make up a load of excuses) I got to the station with about 2mins to spare. I waited in the queue to buy a ticket but there was about 6people in front of me. The train arrived and everyone left the queue and boarded the train. I'm thinking I can buy on the train (I've seen loads of people do this) or I'll buy at the station. So we arrive on the platform and I begin to queue where tickets are being sold. I'm near the top when a few officers come over and start pulling everyone to the side and handing out 'failure to purchase'. I explained my situation and showed my monthly pass but he stated you need a ticket before you travel. I didn't expect him to be sympathetic. I mentioned the £80 fine and he said this was a different matter and as long as you pay the fare £4.20 within 21 days nothing more will happen. The failure to purchase States this but also states repeat offenders will be prosecuted.

He said to call up in a 4/5 days when it will have been processed and pay the £4.20 but I've a feeling it won't be as easy as that? I've already resigned to the fact it will now go to court and I'm facing a big fine and conviction. Are the two matters really separate like he said or will they tie the two together and go to court? I don't really believe him.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[najaB]

He said to call up in a 4/5 days when it will have been processed and pay the £4.20 but I've a feeling it won't be as easy as that? I've already resigned to the fact it will now go to court and I'm facing a big fine and conviction. Are the two matters really separate like he said or will they tie the two together and go to court? I don't really believe him.

Only Northern can say what they intend to do. Two incidents inside three months is likely to raise some eyebrows but even if they do decide to proceed with any legal action, it will be based on what happened today, not the matter in November.

 

[Gspaddock]

Only Northern can say what they intend to do. Two incidents inside three months is likely to raise some eyebrows but even if they do decide to proceed with any legal action, it will be based on what happened today, not the matter in November.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

That's good to know. It's the same old thing, you see them selling tickets on the train (every station stop has ticket buying facilities) and openly at the ticket barriers at Piccadilly but every knows (or should know) you need a ticket before travel but people think it's ok I'll get one on route.

The paperwork does say pay within 21 days and that's that and he said that himself but I'm thinking when I call up to pay (maybe you can do it online) they will follow it up, or maybe not? They didn't take any statement or anything like that, just name address and wrote down the single fare cost that I had to pay.

The first time was a stupid mistake but today I felt was an honest mistake. I'm a queue ready to pay and I'm getting my details taken.

 

[bb21]

What paperwork do you have? What does it say?

 

[island]

Thing is, it's a criminal offence when you join a train without a ticket when you're at a station with ticketing facilities. As you've been issued an £80 administrative penalty for non-payment before, you are now liable to be prosecuted I'm afraid.

 

[Gspaddock]

What paperwork do you have? What does it say?

FAILURE TO PURCHASE NOTICE

you have been identified as boarding a NR service when at the commencement of your journey the appropriate ticket purchasing facilities were working and available at your original station.

Having failed to use the facilities provided the fare outstanding for this journey is £4.20.

IMPORTANT - failure to pay within 21 within 21 days will result in the matter being referred for prosecution. If you are a reoccurring offender the matter will be referred for prosecution.

The last bit is the worrying part. I highlighted this to the officer and he still said its not related just pay the fine and that's that. Maybe if you have previously had one of these it would flag? I've a feeling I'll pay this then a letter will follow...

 

[Gspaddock]

Thing is, it's a criminal offence when you join a train without a ticket when you're at a station with ticketing facilities. As you've been issued an £80 administrative penalty for non-payment before, you are now liable to be prosecuted I'm afraid.

Thanks.

As stated, I'm fully aware and expecting this now it's just the mixed messages I got from the officer, I'd rather know one way or another but I guess I will have to wait.

 

[bb21]

I assume that they took your name and address?

There is not much you can do now until you hear back from them, if they do.

What you need to make sure you do to stop this already bad situation getting worse is to pay your outstanding fare promptly. Ring them in about a week's time and if not yet processed, persist with it on a daily basis until it is paid and cleared.

 

[Gspaddock]

I assume that they took your name and address?

There is not much you can do now until you hear back from them, if they do.

What you need to make sure you do to stop this already bad situation getting worse is to pay your outstanding fare promptly. Ring them in about a week's time and if not yet processed, persist with it on a daily basis until it is paid and cleared.

Thanks for your reply.

Yes took name and address but no statement. He kept highlighting the difference between this sheet of paper and taking details in the little black book saying the black book is more serious and that involves a statement.

Hopefully in a few days I can pay this£4.20 online and that's it closed, I guess after that I just have to wait and see.

 

[island]

I would suggest paying the amount asked without further ado and waiting. Don't call them, don't prompt them.

 

[bb21]

I would suggest paying the amount asked without further ado and waiting. Don't call them, don't prompt them.

... if it can be paid online.

I however do agree that the OP shouldn't prompt them even if he rang up. No mention about the previous incident and no discussion about what potential consequences he would be facing.

Simply state that he wishes to pay the outstanding amount, make the payment, and leave it at that would be my recommendation.

 

[Gspaddock]

... if it can be paid online.

I however do agree that the OP shouldn't prompt them even if he rang up. No mention about the previous incident and no discussion about what potential consequences he would be facing.

Simply state that he wishes to pay the outstanding amount, make the payment, and leave it at that would be my recommendation.

Thanks again, you've all been very helpful.

I tried to pay online last night and again today but got this message;

Sorry, it has not been possible to locate your FTP notice on our system.
It normally takes a few days before we receive the details from the inspector who issued the FTP notice.
Please check your details to ensure they are correct or try again tomorrow.

I'll keep trying and keep you posted. Hopefully pay that and that's the end of it like the revenue inspector said when he issued the FTP.

 

[bb21]

Give it a few days to start with, as it will take time to be processed, at railway efficiency too )).

 

[Gspaddock]

Still not up online after 1week and everyday this week people have openly purchased tickets at Manchester Piccadilly whilst departing from the same station as mine that had people an open ticket office in us. Just where is the consistency?

 

[Merseysider]

Still not up online after 1week and everyday this week people have openly purchased tickets at Manchester Piccadilly whilst departing from the same station as mine that had people an open ticket office in us. Just where is the consistency?

It's possible the case was incorrectly logged online, but I would recommend that you keep trying.

And with regards to consistency; it's been like that for some time. The only way to get a definite outcome is to buy a ticket in the first place and avoid getting into trouble.

 

[Gspaddock]

It's possible the case was incorrectly logged online, but I would recommend that you keep trying.

And with regards to consistency; it's been like that for some time. The only way to get a definite outcome is to buy a ticket in the first place and avoid getting into trouble.

I'll keep trying online. With regards to the details logged incorrectly it would only be the postcode because it's the FTP and postcode that I have to enter online. As mentioned above I don't want to ring them to maybe trigger something (they might see my previous £80 penalty) and just wanted to pay online and hope that's it. I'll keep trying, I suppose I have 21 days.

Agreed on your second point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As it's now a week since this happened and I haven't been able to pay online as of yet (it's the wait that kills you) I've been reading up on some previous cases and then some more reading on top of that, I really should just wait it out.

Anyway on another thread I saw people saying that a conviction under Byelaw doesn't carry a criminal record? Obviously I'd rather this didn't reach court but a fine and no criminal record would be a great result as it stands. I'm pretty confident that if this was the first time I'd just be able to pay this online and that's it but the incident back end of last year worries me. So can they take me to court for a Byelaw offence?

Here is the paperwork.
http://i62.tinypic.com/2dulf5u.jpg

 

[island]

There is no criminal record for byelaw offences, yes.

Why not pay by post?

 

[Gspaddock]

There is no criminal record for byelaw offences, yes.

Why not pay by post?

I suppose I could or even over the phone but the advise early on was to just pay it and don't phone them up if I don't have to.

Can you still go to court for Byelaw offence?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[najaB]

Can you still go to court for Byelaw offence?

Yes. Though the case can be heard in your absence as well if you were to be summoned but failed to attend.

 

[Gspaddock]

Yes. Though the case can be heard in your absence as well if you were to be summoned but failed to attend.

What does NR benefit from this if any fines go to the court and no criminal record?

 

[najaB]

What does NR benefit from this if any fines go to the court and no criminal record?

The main benefit is that serial fare evaders are forced to pay up for their actions and may think again about skipping on a £5 fare than ended up costing them £300. If it was just about financial benefit then NR (or any TOC) would settle out of court all the time.

 

[DelayRepay]

The main benefit is that serial fare evaders are forced to pay up for their actions and may think again about skipping on a £5 fare than ended up costing them £300. If it was just about financial benefit then NR (or any TOC) would settle out of court all the time.

They also have the benefit of some examples to use in their poster campaigns explaining why you must buy a ticket.

 

[Clip]

I'll keep trying online. With regards to the details logged incorrectly it would only be the postcode because it's the FTP and postcode that I have to enter online.

If the FTP code to enter is correct then I emplore you to enter it and pay it.

But I have to ask why is the postcode wrong? Admittedly I still get my postcode wrong as when I moved house I still use the old one ( same district) dont and it nearly screwed up my last mortgage application however it is my belief that if you ring them monday morning with the FTP to sort it out then it will go no further but dont take that as gospel.

But please, in future and because of your history, make sure this is the last time this happens because you may come back here asking for help that everyone can not give.

Make time to be early. Or if you are going to be late, then be late - ive learned this now and it makes no difference as the world and you job wont end because you are late.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What does NR benefit from this if any fines go to the court and no criminal record?

In addition to the fine and Victim Surcharge, the prosecuting company will recover (1) the unpaid fare, and (2) their proportionate costs in detecting, investigating and prosecuting the crime (or "ticket irregularity").

 

[Gspaddock]

If the FTP code to enter is correct then I emplore you to enter it and pay it.

But I have to ask why is the postcode wrong? Admittedly I still get my postcode wrong as when I moved house I still use the old one ( same district) dont and it nearly screwed up my last mortgage application however it is my belief that if you ring them monday morning with the FTP to sort it out then it will go no further but dont take that as gospel.

But please, in future and because of your history, make sure this is the last time this happens because you may come back here asking for help that everyone can not give.

Make time to be early. Or if you are going to be late, then be late - ive learned this now and it makes no difference as the world and you job wont end because you are late.

Sorry I think you misred my post. I provided my correct details on the form but the only two details I need for payment online are the FTP which is typed out and my postcode which I wrote down, that's what I was meaning when I said about the postcode that the person on the receiving end filling in the details has manually mistyped this thus the postcode and FTP number not matching.mit has only been a week and the long line of people they handed out the FTP's to that morning is probably creating a backlog.
I always buy monthly passes but on this occasion it finished on the Thursday and I wasn't going to buy another monthly on the Friday because I don't use it at the weekends and that's days wasted, still not an excuse.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Clip]

Ok, I did missunderstand. Ring em. Sort it. Dont do it again.

 

[Gspaddock]

Ok, I did missunderstand. Ring em. Sort it. Dont do it again.

Gonna give it another couple of days before I ring, I'll keep trying online in the meantime.

 

[Clip]

Good. probably best to try monday to ring as we all need weekends off

 

[Gspaddock]

Rang this morning and there was no record of the FTP, apparently they only arrive on Tuesday's/Thursday's and to check again tomorrow. On my way home I checked online and it was showing so I paid the fare. Now, should I ring tomorrow to check that's it all done or just forget about it now and hope nothing more comes of it.

 

[bb21]

Did you take a screenshot of the message that confirmed your payment, or alternatively did you receive an email confirmation?