Northern Rail DMU shortage

[northwichcat]

I was wondering if anyone can shed light on why so many west side diagrams have been short formed last and this week.

The short formations reported for this evening are:

15:24 Southport to Manchester Airport due 16:53, 15:26 Manchester Victoria to Leeds due 17:02, 15:48 Manchester Victoria to Selby due 17:56, 16:03 Manchester Airport to Southport due 17:37, 16:05 Manchester Piccadilly to Rose Hill Marple due 16:36, 16:53 Rose Hill Marple to Manchester Piccadilly due 17:26, 17:06 Manchester Airport to Southport due 18:38, 17:50 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield due 19:07, 18:23 Selby to Manchester Victoria due 20:18, 18:57 Southport to Manchester Victoria due 20:12, 19:14 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly due 20:33, 20:23 Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North due 21:47, 20:46 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield due 22:03, 22:47 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly due 00:10

 

[oddiesjack]

This train was definitely short-formed on Monday afternoon/evening:
17:50 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield due 19:07,

and therefore the following working would be, too:
19:14 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly due 20:33.

I have noted that the 18:14 Piccadilly to New Mills Central was regularly a pair of 142s, but of late it seems to have become a single 142 set.

Incidentally, where have you retrieved this short-forming data from?

 

[northwichcat]

This train was definitely short-formed on Monday afternoon/evening:
17:50 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield due 19:07,

and therefore the following working would be, too:
19:14 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly due 20:33.

I have noted that the 18:14 Piccadilly to New Mills Central was regularly a pair of 142s, but of late it seems to have become a single 142 set.

Incidentally, where have you retrieved this short-forming data from?

http://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail

There's a button linking to it on the northernrail.org homepage which says 'view realtime information'.

It's actually unusual to see Southport services in the list and unusual to see the 17:23 Piccadilly-Chinley not included in a long list of short formings. Yesterday they had cancellations due to shortage of rolling stock, which is very rare as normally cancellation is a last resort if they can't do any more short forming.

 

[WatcherZero]

The way Northern does the rosterings with highly tuned capacity using a large variety of classes it means only two or three unavailable would lead like dominoes to dozens of short formed services.

 

[hassaanhc]

The way Northern does the rosterings with highly tuned capacity using a large variety of classes it means only two or three unavailable would lead like dominoes to dozens of short formed services.

It could be just 2 or 3 diagrams that are short, but as the same train does many services it can look worse than it is.
The other day SWT were showing 19 short formations when I checked around 1700, but it turned out only three diagrams led to those 19 services showing in the list!

 

[Philip]

In theory would it be possible for Northern to hire in some 1st generation stock (like 101s) from the preservation back into passenger service just on a short term basis? May sound absurd but a train is better than no train!

 

[IanXC]

In theory would it be possible for Northern to hire in some 1st generation stock (like 101s) from the preservation back into passenger service just on a short term basis? May sound absurd but a train is better than no train!

If you can find a unit it good enough condition, agree terms with the owners, and find a line which is "locked in" (so as not to come into potential contact with anything else) and where the service could be covered by said preserved unit capacity wise.

Did you have specific case in mind?

 

[Philip]

If you can find a unit it good enough condition, agree terms with the owners, and find a line which is "locked in" (so as not to come into potential contact with anything else) and where the service could be covered by said preserved unit capacity wise.

Did you have specific case in mind?

From what you've said two that spring to mind are Manchester to Clitheroe and Manchester to Chester via Northwich. Neither are locked in throughout but for the majority of both routes they are. Say if Northern brought 8 or 9 class 101s back into service and put them on Chester and Clitheroe services it'd free up a similar number of 2nd gen DMUs which would be very handy for boosting capacity on other local routes. What's more because some 101s are three or four coaches long it could improve capacity at least on currently booked two-coach off peak services.

 

[158722]

From what you've said two that spring to mind are Manchester to Clitheroe and Manchester to Chester via Northwich. Neither are locked in throughout but for the majority of both routes they are. Say if Northern brought 8 or 9 class 101s back into service and put them on Chester and Clitheroe services it'd free up a similar number of 2nd gen DMUs which would be very handy for boosting capacity on other local routes. What's more because some 101s are three or four coaches long it could improve capacity at least on currently booked two-coach off peak services.

Why bother? Far too complex on the modern railway, even if units in decent enough condition existed, when the obvious 'solution' is a peak time loco hauled set on a Blackpool-Manchester diagram for example, replacing a 6-cat DMU set for use elsewhere. The locos exist, the stock can be made available, crews can be trained, but no it won't happen because its all far too expensive...

 

[PHILIPE]

If you can find a unit it good enough condition, agree terms with the owners, and find a line which is "locked in" (so as not to come into potential contact with anything else) and where the service could be covered by said preserved unit capacity wise.

Did you have specific case in mind?

And all the Red Tape that goes with it(DaFT)

 

[142094]

You'd also need to train Northern's drivers on the traction, which would take a lot of time and resources. Need to remember that across Northern's network, not all Northern drivers sign all the available traction, so training on preserved stock for a short-term hire in is not going to happen.

 

[IanXC]

From what you've said two that spring to mind are Manchester to Clitheroe and Manchester to Chester via Northwich. Neither are locked in throughout but for the majority of both routes they are.

It has to be locked in throughout. Such units don't meet the current safety standards, hence Chilterns are used on Aylesbury to Princes Risborough, and ATWs was used on Cardiff Bay.

The only location that springs to mind for me is Windermere, but whether the timetable could beade to work I have no idea!

And all the Red Tape that goes with it(DaFT)

I'm not sure DfT would have a problem really... Unless what you really mean is 'years of industry knowledge' (by organisations such as RSSB and RAIB) equals 'red tape'.

 

[northwichcat]

It could be just 2 or 3 diagrams that are short, but as the same train does many services it can look worse than it is.
The other day SWT were showing 19 short formations when I checked around 1700, but it turned out only three diagrams led to those 19 services showing in the list!

It was 6 diagrams that had 2 carriages instead of 4 yesterday evening.

The list also doesn't show smaller trains with the same number of carriages e.g. a 2 car 142 running on a diagram which should be a 2 car 156, which is equivalent to 1/2 carriage missing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neither are locked in throughout but for the majority of both routes they are.

Chester isn't as 'locked-in' as you might think. There's some unit switching between Chester, Hazel Grove and Buxton services at peak times while some unit switching goes on at Chester to allow a 156 to operate the afternoon Helsby-Ellesmere Port shuttle and then go on to operate an evening peak time service out of Lime Street.

Also while Chester services in the off-peak usually go in to platform 11 and wait there until the next service there are occasions when the arrival is diverted to a low number platform and the unit is put on to a New Mills service.

It would be easier to 'lock-in' Chester if there was a half-hourly service at the main stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Shorter list of short formations today but it doesn't seem to be less diagrams so maybe some later services are still to be added.

15:16 Manchester Victoria to Leeds due 16:44
15:57 Southport to Leeds due 18:38
16:16 Manchester Victoria to Leeds due 17:45
16:18 Leeds to Manchester Victoria due 17:41
16:48 Leeds to Sheffield due 18:02
16:51 Leeds to Manchester Victoria due 18:23
16:54 Selby to Huddersfield due 18:45
17:45 Manchester Victoria to Leeds due 19:14
18:15 Sheffield to Leeds due 19:31
18:26 Manchester Victoria to Leeds due 20:02

 

[jon91]

From what you've said two that spring to mind are Manchester to Clitheroe and Manchester to Chester via Northwich. Neither are locked in throughout but for the majority of both routes they are. Say if Northern brought 8 or 9 class 101s back into service and put them on Chester and Clitheroe services it'd free up a similar number of 2nd gen DMUs which would be very handy for boosting capacity on other local routes. What's more because some 101s are three or four coaches long it could improve capacity at least on currently booked two-coach off peak services.

I'd say that Manchester Victoria-Clitheroe is by no means locked in, especially since it goes through areas of high rail traffic namely around Victoria and the Salford-Bolton corridor, then throw in the freight that goes to Castle Cement in Clitheroe and various other areas of the route. Doesn't bode well for anyone trying to make a safety case for running heritage DMUs on that particular route I'm afraid.

 

[PHILIPE]

Where would the Heritage Units be serviced and maintained. They would still have to go to a Depot somewhere or other.

 

[driver9000]

In theory would it be possible for Northern to hire in some 1st generation stock (like 101s) from the preservation back into passenger service just on a short term basis? May sound absurd but a train is better than no train!

Who pays for fitting TPWS,OTDR,GSMR, Door locks and bringing the units back to mainline standards? Traction training for Drivers would be the other hurdle to overcome too. A nice idea but not going to be feasible.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You'd also need to train Northern's drivers on the traction, which would take a lot of time and resources. Need to remember that across Northern's network, not all Northern drivers sign all the available traction, so training on preserved stock for a short-term hire in is not going to happen.

Not just their drivers, all the guards would need some training too. And you'd have to get some sort of central door locking fitted I think.

....The only location that springs to mind for me is Windermere, but whether the timetable could beade to work I have no idea!....

Windermere is a TPE line, not Northern. Most locked in for Northern might be Ormskirk-Preston or Middlesborough-Whitby, but they might work other services.

 

[edwin_m]

Although there are quite a few surviving DMUs, most of them are either totally unusable or have been restored, mainly by volunteers, to perform a useful role on a heritage railway. In the first case they would be no use to Northern and in the second they would be very unlikely to get hold of them.

 

[IanXC]

Windermere is a TPE line, not Northern. Most locked in for Northern might be Ormskirk-Preston or Middlesborough-Whitby, but they might work other services.

It is indeed - I was sure I'd said 'in the north' - by a bizarre turn of date I'd been on the branch not a few hours before my post!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I know that Swanage Railway is going to use heritage DMUs for its trial service to Wareham, would any non-heritage TOC even be allowed to use a heritage DMU with modern crash regs?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Most locked in for Northern might be Ormskirk-Preston or Middlesborough-Whitby, but they might work other services.

What other services would likely use the Preston to Ormskirk line.....or have I mis-read the quote above ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is indeed - I was sure I'd said 'in the north' - by a bizarre turn of date I'd been on the branch not a few hours before my post!

Well, I'm not sure that making TPE drivers and guards learn something 'new' to release a 185 that, for Northern to make any use of, Northern Guards and Drivers would have to learn, would be time and effort well spent, particularly as the Northern 319s would probably be in squadron service by then!....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What other services would likely use the Preston to Ormskirk line.....or have I mis-read the quote above ?

I was thinking the units might go somewhere else before or after, a bit like the Ellesmere Port line units do.

 

[Dunc108]

Why bother? Far too complex on the modern railway, even if units in decent enough condition existed, when the obvious 'solution' is a peak time loco hauled set on a Blackpool-Manchester diagram for example, replacing a 6-cat DMU set for use elsewhere. The locos exist, the stock can be made available, crews can be trained, but no it won't happen because its all far too expensive...

Yes, I agree I'd think a loco and at least 4xDRS MK2's would be good on a Manchester peak time service, don't these see hired in use on some Anglia services between Norwich and Yarmouth?

 

[IanXC]

Well, I'm not sure that making TPE drivers and guards learn something 'new' to release a 185 that, for Northern to make any use of, Northern Guards and Drivers would have to learn, would be time and effort well spent, particularly as the Northern 319s would probably be in squadron service by then!....

Absolutely. If anything TPE learn the heritage unit, and then the released 185 is used to cover a Northern diagram on a route TPE already sign (eg Blackpool North or Bolton). In reality its a complete and utter non starter - if there were available units I think ATW would have taken them up rather than give up on Cardiff Bay...

 

[PHILIPE]

Absolutely. If anything TPE learn the heritage unit, and then the released 185 is used to cover a Northern diagram on a route TPE already sign (eg Blackpool North or Bolton). In reality its a complete and utter non starter - if there were available units I think ATW would have taken them up rather than give up on Cardiff Bay...

ATW gave up on the Cardiff Bay due to the Bubble Car being so unreliable. It was out of service for months at a time on occasions and became more trouble than it was worth.

 

[IanXC]

ATW gave up on the Cardiff Bay due to the Bubble Car being so unreliable. It was out of service for months at a time on occasions and became more trouble than it was worth.

Precisely. They had a good location for use of a heritage unit - if there were others suitable and available surely they would have investigated options.

 

[evergreenadam]

Yes, I agree I'd think a loco and at least 4xDRS MK2's would be good on a Manchester peak time service, don't these see hired in use on some Anglia services between Norwich and Yarmouth?

Everyone seems to agree that we need extra diesel rolling stock now, we can't wait until electrification projects are completed to release DMUs - Blackpool to Preston is being delayed. The short formations, DMU breakdowns and overcrowding on Northern require a more immediate solution. East Midlands, Southern, London Overground, Chiltern and Great Western could also do with more DMU stock now to meet passenger demand.

In any case the release of DMUs from electrification will hardly allow for one for one replacement of DMUs when actually proposals for new services, reopened lines and the relief of overcrowding on existing services means more DMUs than are ever to be released anytime soon.

Loco hauled 442s anyone?

 

[northwichcat]

They seemed to have solved the problem but yesterday and today has seen a large number of short formations reported.

Also a few stations with no lights - Prestbury, Burnage and Guide Bridge. Northern TVMs being reported as not working isn't a surprise.

 

[Tetchytyke]

ATW gave up on the Cardiff Bay due to the Bubble Car being so unreliable. It was out of service for months at a time on occasions and became more trouble than it was worth.

But Chiltern manage to make the Bubble Car work at Princes Risborough, so it can't be all doom and gloom.

The main problem with heritage stock is the spare parts.

What Northern really need to look at is loco-hauled crowd-busting trains, for some of the busiest routes at the busiest times. There is plenty of history of crowd-busting trains using unusual stock in the area- Northern themselves made good use of the spare East Coast 180s (so no arguments about "staff training" being an issue), and both Arriva Trains Northern and First North Western had regular loco-hauled trains that Northern decided to bin for no good reason.

It wouldn't need many rakes to be hired in, either. One for the Harrogate line out of Leeds and one for the Blackpool North or Southport line out of Manchester. I'm sure Porterbrook would be open to a good deal on the Pretendolino, for instance.

Of course it won't happen. Serco have never knowingly invested their own money in anything, and there's not the political will from the Eton toffs at DafT.

 

[Geeves]

There was a track circuit failure at Bolton station yesterday that caused alot of issues unit wise. One Clitheroe train arrived on 4, shunted back to 3 and then onwards towards Clitheroe again! Needless to say they didn't do that too many times.