Northern Rail Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit Letter

[TheNow]

Hello All,

Hope you're all well.

Could you please help with the following.

I've just got a letter through dated 13th May from the above.

I was travelling from A to B to C. Both A and B being manned stations. At station A I saw the train pulling in so ran to get on it without a ticket. Didn't see a guard and even went looking for him. No joy. At B I wouldn't have been able to get a ticket in time as the connection was about 5 minutes and there was a massive queue at ticket stall. So I deceided to get the ticket for the full journey on the B to C train, which I've seen other passengers do. When the guard approached me for a ticket we were actually about to pull into C and although it lookked like he would have taken payment, because I wanted to pay by debit card he refused and said that I should have got one in Leeds. He said he's need my name and address to send a bill for the fare to. Which I provided. I've now got a rather official sounding letter asking for my version of the events.

I havent been given any official notices from them about this beforehand, didn't have any interviews, didn't sign anything on the train. No statement. No UPFN. He just scribbled my name and address down on a piece of tatty paper. Surprised it got to me at all actually.

The letter they sent has also got the wrong train station from where I got on also. It was the stop after where I actually got on and that is unmanned.

Any advice on how to proceed on this such as what to reply to NR with? involve a solicitor? etc is much appreciated. The letter states that should I not respond it will result in legal action being taken RTRRA 1889. Byelaw Offences.

I appreciate I've been naive and a bit of a gimp here so be gentle with me. And please help. The thought of prison food and and a criminal record is a bit scary. But not as scary as losing my job and having to move back in with my Dad.

Many Thanks.

 

[LexyBoy]

Welcome.

First of all, what does the letter say? Are you being threatened with prosecution, or just being asked to pay the fare due?

If the letter claims you boarded at an unmanned station, I can't see how you could be prosecuted, since your only opportunity to buy would have been on-board (or at an intermediate station if there were time, which there wasn't in your case).

Obviously, you should have bought a ticket at Leeds, but you clearly did try and buy a ticket so I would think a criminal record is unlikely (IANAL however, but some other forum members are...). I'm not sure how important the "tatty bit of paper" is - a UPFN is the proper way of doing it, but guards/RPIs may be able to just make a note. The passenger's signature is not required for UPFN to be valid.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I cannot recommend ignoring the letter and relying on a 'not guilty' plea in front of the Magistrates.
You may indeed be successful by following that strategy, but if you fail then you will be fined (and depending on the actual Offence which is alledged, might incur an entry in the Police National Computer) which I'm sure you do not wish.

The letter which you've received sounds to me as if it is a standard request for a Statement from you, which can then be used by Northern to decide how to proceed. There are several response you can make, and some of us on here might be willing to assist you. But before choosing how to assist, it would be helpful to know the exact phrase used in Northern's letter about the alledged incident. There should be either a simple phrase (such as 'travelling without a valid ticket') or else the Section number of the Act of which they suspect you might have fallen foul (such as S.5.3).
It would also be useful to know the sentence in which 'the wrong station' appears (I'm wondering if the statement is the Guard noting that (s)he observed you while travelling from station xxxxxxx rather than implying that you actually boarded at station xxxxxx).

Another matter which is used in the industry to make decisions about passengers travelling without a ticket relates to how they attempted to pay. Did you approach the guard for a ticket or did you sit tight until the guard approached you? And what was said at that time?

Finally, you can be sure that Northern will look at their records to see if there is a note of any previous incident. Is there?

 

[YorkshireRider]

I was travelling from A to B to C. Both A and B being manned stations



The letter they sent has also got the wrong train station from where I got on also. It was the stop after where I actually got on and that is unmanned.

So was it a manned station or not? Not an expert but it could make a difference

 

[Deerfold]

So was it a manned station or not? Not an expert but it could make a difference

And I wouldn't assume choosing the unmanned station mentioned by the Guard would improve your chances - if there was a block on that day you'd sink your argument.

 

[TheNow]

Thanks for taking the time to help so far, guys.

Letter as follows

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Rail Limited. The company has a policy of zero tolerance in matters of fare evasion and anti social behaviour.

On the 25 March 2011 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff with regard to an incident of; the non-payment of a rail fare whilst making a train journey from Bramley to Normanton. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident; therefore it is imperative that you do not hestitate in contacting the Unit as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request or provide a satisfactory explanation with regard to this incident will result in legal action being taken (*Regulations of Railway Act and Railway Byelaws apply). I must inform you that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for £100 as a contribution to our costs. Offences of this nature are recordable and should you be convicted you will recieve a criminal record.






My guess is that this is them getting the statement from me that they never got in the first place. My rights haven't been read up until now so not sure if that makes a difference. I'm definitely not going to ignore the letter, I've made a mistake and want to put things right. But want to get things sorted with the least amount of pain. Obviously if they'd made a glaring mistake in their process and I could get the threats thrown out and just pay them the fare then I will do. Maybe that's where the lawyers come in?

The station I boarded was manned. I just saw my train and legged it on. The one they're saying I boarded was unamanned. I know now it's my responsibility but I just thought I'd get a ticket on one of the trains which I have seen done hundreds of times before. My bad.

No previous incidents. Clean criminal record.

Didn't approach the guard no. Like I said I thought it was just common to bea able to just pay on the train. What he said was that he couldn't take the payment since the train was coming into station and there was no time. And he needed my details to send the bill on for payment of the fare. Not that I was facing prosecution or anything like that

 

[Stigy]

As has been said, I certainly wouldn't ignore their letter, as it's really your only chance to avoid court procedings. Regarding the incorrect station, it could just be a mistake on the part or Northern Rail and the letter they sent you, which really wouldn't make a great difference. If the station was incorrect on the witness statement, then you may have chance on court to get out of it. Would you really want to risk it though? After all, it was you on that date spoken to by that Inspector, so it probably wont make a great deal of difference.

You don't need to be offered to sign anything, or even be questioned under caution to be reported for an offence, and such cases do make it as far as court. Assuming it's a letter informing you that they intend to prosecute you, they'll want to do so under either Railway Byelaw 18.1 or Section 5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA 1889). The former is not as severe in that you'll not be a new entry on to the Police National Computer (Non-Recordable), and is typically a lesser fine than that of the more serious RRA 1889 offence, for which a PNC entry could occur as it is a recordable offence (for this one to happen they'd have to believe you intended to avoid payment, and given your account, I very much doubt they'd be able to establish this, especially given the RPIs evidence). You'll no dobt be told in their letter of the possible outcome upon conviction of a £1,000 fine and 3-months in prison. This doesn't even happen with persistant fare evaders, and is reserved typically for at least subsequent offences of the same nature, in other words, you don't need to worry.

I'd advise you to write back to them and express your deepest sorrow (without sounding sarcastic!), and say it'll never happen again. It's usual practice to offer to pay the company's reasonable admin costs to remain out of court, too. They don't have to accept, but if they do it'll save you the hassle of court and the possible reprocussions!

 

[Anvil1984]

So was it a manned station or not? Not an expert but it could make a difference

That's what I thought the OP has contradicted himself in his own post without coersion, what actually happened

 

[TheNow]

I'll try again as this didn't post this morning. Thanks for your help so far.

The letter...

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Rail Limited. The company has a zero policy tolerance in matters of fare evasion and anti social behaviour.

On the 25 March 2011 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff with regard to an incident of; the non payment of a rail fare whilst making a train journey from X to Y. Before the company proceeds further with its investigations in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident; therefore it is imperative that you do not hesitate in contacting the Unit as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request or provide a sastisfactory explanation with regard to this incident will result in legal action being taken (*Regulations of Railway Act and Railway Byelaws apply). I must inform you that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application of £100 as a contribution to our costs. Offences of this nature are recordable and should you be convicted you will receive a criminal record.

Asks for name, contact details, dob and travelled from and travelled to.

[End]


So basically it's asking me to write and sign my own confession? lol

To answer some queries:

No previous incidents of this nature. No criminal record. No UPFN issued. No form filled in by me. Nothing signed, No rights read or anything. Just took my name and card number I think.

I actually got on at Z, a stop before X, which is a manned station. I didn't approach the guard, never seen it done, didn't know I had to. I've seen passengers buy tickets on this train before and figured you were allowed to do that. But know now that you can't. So my bad.

I'm certainly responding to the letter and probs going to tell the truth, admit my mistake, and offer to pay the fare. Unless any of you can suggest another course of action? I'm going to phone them later too as that's what it's suggesting I do in the letter.

Cheers

 

[clagmonster]

May I ask, was C a staffed station at which you could have purchased your ticket on arrival?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's what I thought the OP has contradicted himself in his own post without coersion, what actually happened

I think you (or me) is misinterpreting the post. His journey started at staffed station A, but is recorded on the documentation as boarding at a different, unstaffed station.

 

[RJ]

If the information is incorrect, then that is their mistake
Do not respond and let the matter proceed to court
In court simply advise you did not board the train at the station in the order they sent you (and say no more) and refute their claim

Asinine advice - anyone with two brain cells to rub together wouldn't advise or act upon an idea like this.

 

[Stigy]

May I ask, was C a staffed station at which you could have purchased your ticket on arrival?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you (or me) is misinterpreting the post. His journey started at staffed station A, but is recorded on the documentation as boarding at a different, unstaffed station.

I believe he was saying that the incorrect station mentioned in the report was unstaffed. I understood it as that anyway. In other words, station A.5 was unstaffed.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its notable that the OP has not been back to add some of the additional detail which might assist in giving reliable advice.

However I must express concern at 2 of the suggestions on this thread which are not reliable. Its quite true that both of these suggestions may work for some people, in some circumstances, on some occassions; but in both these cases, the risk of failure would put the passenger at a considerable disadvantage.
Such 'risky' advice should only be offered with a full explanation of the risks as well as the benefit.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Normanton is not a staffed station however New Pudsey, where i assume the OP boarded is, until a certain time in the evening

 

[Squaddie]

At station A I saw the train pulling in so ran to get on it without a ticket. Didn't see a guard and even went looking for him.

I actually got on at Z, a stop before X, which is a manned station. I didn't approach the guard, never seen it done, didn't know I had to.

There appears to be a discrepancy in your own story here. In your first post you said you went looking for the guard, and later you said you didn't (and didn't even know you had to). Or am I just getting confused by the inconsistent use of letters instead of actual station names?

On the 25 March 2011 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff with regard to an incident of; the non-payment of a rail fare whilst making a train journey from Bramley to Normanton.

So, based upon your own version of events, you were travelling from New Pudsey (the station before Bramley) to Normanton via Leeds? The connection time at Leeds for that journey is about 20 minutes, isn't it? Plenty of time to buy a ticket.

This story doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

 

[MikeWh]

There appears to be a discrepancy in your own story here. In your first post you said you went looking for the guard, and later you said you didn't (and didn't even know you had to). Or am I just getting confused by the inconsistent use of letters instead of actual station names?

So, based upon your own version of events, you were travelling from New Pudsey (the station before Bramley) to Normanton via Leeds? The connection time at Leeds for that journey is about 20 minutes, isn't it? Plenty of time to buy a ticket.

This story doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

There does appear to be a reluctance to name the stations concerned which has fallen down where a post has been delayed (awaiting moderation possibly) which did actually name the stations. To a new reader it all appears confused but I don't think that is all the fault of the OP.

However, the last poster has raised an interesting point regarding minimum connection times. What I don't know, and would like to understand, is what relevance they might have to this story. AFAIU, the minimum connection time is the time which must be allowed when booking an itinery where travel on specific trains is required. Additionally it is the time which must be allowed at the end of service if you are going to want the railway to assist you if your incoming train is late. I am not aware of any requirement to use that time to purchase tickets if there is an earlier connection that can be made. To put it another way, on flexible walk-on tickets you are welcome to plan to undercut the minimum connection time if you wish, but it is at your risk if your incoming train is delayed. I'm not convinced that the rule that says that you do not need to delay your journey to purchase tickets en route prevents you from taking an earlier train if one is available.

 

[Squaddie]

I don't really think minimum connection times are relevant here.

My point is that an examination of the timetable on that route suggests that there is generally a 20-minute wait at Leeds. The OP's first train did not depart late, because he said he had to run for it, so unless it lost 15 minutes on that very short journey his claim that he had only 5 minutes to change trains at Leeds sounds odd. (If his first train had lost 15 minutes in a few miles I think he might have mentioned it as a mitigating factor).

Obviously, my mind is still open and I would welcome some further detail from the OP. But it is quite possible that this is a straightforward issue of attempted fare evasion, and that we on this forum are assisting an evader to get away with it.

 

[YorkshireRider]

In fairness trains from New Pudsey are every 15 mins during the day and only every hour to Normanton, i wouldnt want to miss the connection and wait another a hour either, the version of events seems perfectly true to me

 

[TheNow]

Hi all,


I got the 16:42 from New Pudsey which if it gets into Leeds on time gives me generally between 5 to 10 minutes before getting the 17:05 to Nottingham which gets me into Normanton at about 17:15. If I miss that then it means waiting in Leeds and getting a longer duration train, meaning arriving at Normanton about an hour later. So I want to get that train if I can. That's why I rushed on to the train at New Pudsey too as I'd have no chance of getting the 17:05. I'm not sure the exact time it rolled into Leeds but I made the judgement call I wouldn't have enough time to get a ticket and that's why I decided to get one on the Leeds to Nottingham train. At the end of the day I now understand that the onus was on me to buy a ticket in good time before boarding at New Pudsey. No getting away from that really. Just need advice on how to proceed and how to handle the fact that they've put the wrong station on the letter.

HTH. Thanks to you all for taking your time to comment so far.

 

[TheNow]

There does appear to be a reluctance to name the stations concerned which has fallen down where a post has been delayed (awaiting moderation possibly) which did actually name the stations. To a new reader it all appears confused but I don't think that is all the fault of the OP.

However, the last poster has raised an interesting point regarding minimum connection times. What I don't know, and would like to understand, is what relevance they might have to this story. AFAIU, the minimum connection time is the time which must be allowed when booking an itinery where travel on specific trains is required. Additionally it is the time which must be allowed at the end of service if you are going to want the railway to assist you if your incoming train is late. I am not aware of any requirement to use that time to purchase tickets if there is an earlier connection that can be made. To put it another way, on flexible walk-on tickets you are welcome to plan to undercut the minimum connection time if you wish, but it is at your risk if your incoming train is delayed. I'm not convinced that the rule that says that you do not need to delay your journey to purchase tickets en route prevents you from taking an earlier train if one is available.

I guess the balance for the rail companies is enforcing the law as far as fare evasion is concerned and providing a convenient and usable service. If they wanted to enforce this 100% then sureley they would have put a method in place by now which actually prevented you boarding without a ticket? Every single station would be manned and they would be constantly patrolling the platforms doing ticket checks. There needs to be some flexibility and bend in their system and unofficially there is as I see it in action almost daily. If there wasn't a bend then they would have to stump up the costs, which they obviously don't want to do. If they do prosecute me for this then I'd be inclined to start taking the car to work again. At the end of the day I wanted to use their service on this day to get home and fully intended to pay for that service. if they're going to haul me over the coals for not presenting me with sufficient and convenient opportunity to do that then they lose a frequent and long term customer.

 

[TheNow]

Cheers, guys

Not sure what the crack is but my posts don't seem to be making it onto the thread.

Pudsey 16:42 to Leeds gets in at just before 5 if on time.
Leeds 17:05 to Normanton.

Judged that I wouldn't have enough time to get a ticket at Pudsey or Leeds and intended to get one on the Normanton train based on seeing this being done before. Simply needed to get home for some personal reasons and didn't want thr journey to take another hour.

I know I've done wrong now though and just want some advice on how to respond to the letter. I'm going to say basically what I've said above and offer to compensate them to a figure they see fit to bring the matter to a close at the soonest opportunity. I'm also getting a season ticket to make sure this doesn't happen again so will mention that. Any other advise would be appreciated.

Cheers