Northern Rail debt recovery and prosecutions letter please help!

[Craiguk]

Hi all,

I received a letter today from northern rail stating on Thursday the 6th of August (is there a 14 day period to prosecute like speeding tickets) I was spoken too and have been sent this letter to give me a opportunity to respond.

What happened was I wanted to get off at garforth in Leeds and had been on the same train since Scarborough think it was the black pool north service. For those that don't know garforth is on the same line as travelling to Leeds and blackpool north stops there on some services. So as we wizzied past were I wanted to get off. Once I arrived in Leeds I got onto the garforth train which was leaving a few minutes later.

There was no time to get a ticket in Leeds nor was there a guard on the train to purchase a ticket from.

So i get off at garforth where I had just sped past minutes and asked for my ticket which I didn't have. I explained that I had just come from Scarborough to Leeds past garforth and now I've come back he asked for my Scarborough to Leeds ticket but my partner had them who got off in Leeds.

I have now got that particular ticket from her for when I received this letter, I also have train tickets between garoforth and Leeds before and after I was found to have no ticket.

I'm going to photocopy the Scarborough ticket as part if my response and the other tickets I have both before and after the event to show that I always buy tickets.

Can anyone please advise what else I should put in my response? Or any advice about this case in general and my position. I have never been found before without my ticket and no criminal history.

Thanks All

 

[bb21]

What ticket did you have?

 

[455driver]

So you had a Scarborough to Garforth ticket but over rode into Leeds and back to Garforth, is that right.

Is there an easement that allowed this, did your tickets allow this or were you trying it on because you got on a train which didn't stop at Garforth?

 

[Romilly]

I wondered about that, too, but if I try to book a return ticket from Scarborough to Garforth I get the same price/ticket whether the journey is Scarborough-York-Garforth or Scarborough-York-Leeds-Garforth. And the same is true the other way around (i.e. if I try to book a Garforth-Scarborough return). So if the OP had a Scarborough-Garforth ticket, the issue would seem not to be the fact that the OP travelled via Leeds but the fact that when the OP made the final Leeds-Garforth leg of the OP's journey the ticket was in Leeds with the OP's partner and not with the OP on the train.

If all that is right, this would seem to be a straightforward byelaw offence of not being able to present a valid ticket on request. If this is the OP's first railway offence, presumably the advice should be to wait to hear from the prosecutor and then to clearly and apologetically tell the story. Edit: apologies, I have just re-read the opening post and see that the letter has now been received.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all,

I received a letter today from northern rail stating on Thursday the 6th of August (is there a 14 day period to prosecute like speeding tickets) I was spoken too and have been sent this letter to give me a opportunity to respond.

What happens with speeding tickets is irrelevant to an issue with a rail fare, I'm afraid. You are covered by completely separate legislation.

 

[30907]

I think the OP and partner may both have had Scarborough to Leeds tickets.

 

[Craiguk]

Hi thats right I had a Scarborough to York ticket which allows you to leave the train at any stop along the way. I know have the ticket in my possession. Any advice?

 

[Craiguk]

Yep we both had Scarborough to Leeds tickets

 

[Romilly]

The prosecutor has 6 months in which to send paperwork to the court, so the OP does need to engage with the process if there is to be any hope of dealing with the matter without going to court.

If the OP had bought a valid ticket, and as already mentioned a Scarborough-Garforth ticket would seem to be valid for Scarborough-Leeds-Garforth, and the problem was that the ticket stayed with the OP's partner when they went their separate ways in Leeds, then may be what is needed is a letter explaining that story, enclosing if possible both the OP's ticket(s) and the partner's ticket(s), apologising for not taking care to ensure that the OP had the ticket whilst on the Leeds-Garforth leg, saying that the OP has learnt the necessary lessons and will take care to avoid a repetition, offering to pay the prosecutor's administrative costs, and expressing the wish that the matter can be dealt with without going to court.

Edit: of course, if the tickets were Scarborough-Leeds tickets, then the position is somewhat different as the OP could have purchased a Leeds-Garforth ticket at Leeds even if that meant catching the next train, or have sought permission to travel from the guard before joining the train. In that event, there's more to apologise for.

 

[455driver]

So basically the OP failed to provide a valid ticket when asked, all the other stuff is irrelevant.

Clear byelaw 18 offence, getting hold of a ticket that would have been valid at the time after the event doesn't change the fact that you failed to provide the valid ticket when asked.

 

[Craiguk]

The actual tickets were for Scarborough to Bramley. I got off at Leeds and got on the garforth train she got on the vramley train with both the tickets

 

[najaB]

So i get off at garforth where I had just sped past minutes and asked for my ticket which I didn't have. I explained that I had just come from Scarborough to Leeds past garforth and now I've come back he asked for my Scarborough to Leeds ticket but my partner had them who got off in Leeds.

If I'm understanding your post, you were asked for your ticket at Garforth and didn't have one? If so then you are guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence, and possibly of a Regulation of Railways offence. None of the other points in your post are relevant except that you haven't come to the attention of the prosecutors before. They may be willing to dispose of the matter by way of an out of court settlement. Write to them explaining that you understand that you were in the wrong and apologising for causing them to waste time and resources as a result of your mistake. There is no point fighting it as you *will* come out the worse for it.

 

[Romilly]

So basically the OP failed to provide a valid ticket when asked, all the other stuff is irrelevant.

I agree with the first half of that, and that the other stuff is irrelevant as regards the OP's legal position but might, if it had reflected the actual facts, have helped a prosecuting office decide whether to prosecute or settle out of court.

I fleetingly had sight of a Visitor Message posted by the OP explaining what the actual tickets were. They did cover the OP for Scarborough to Leeds, but not for Leeds back to Garforth. So the OP did not have, and therefore could not produce, a valid ticket for Leeds to Garforth. As the OP said in those Visitor Messages, they should have waited at York for the next Garforth train (or bought a ticket at Leeds for the trip back to Garforth). As a romantic at heart I can understand why the OP decided to stay with their other half for the maximum possible time, but alas in the contest between romance and railway byelaws it is not romance that triumphs.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . As a romantic at heart I can understand why the OP decided to stay with their other half for the maximum possible time, but alas in the contest between romance and railway byelaws it is not romance that triumphs.

True, to a point, but I must say (as I have frequently in the past), that the railway staff I encounter regularly are compassionate people; I have many experiences of discretionary allowances being made where the grounds for the request were no more than wishing to spend more time with a loved one. I've had 2 such experiences this week already (and with some reciprocal declarations from the rail staff of the joys of their own relationships!). But, always where these discussions take place before boarding.

Travel without a valid ticket after boarding, for the journey already underway, and with 'romantic excuses' are never going to get anyone very far.

 

[ian959]

I have never been found before without my ticket and no criminal history.

Interesting phrase - does that mean you have done this before just never been caught?

Taking out all the irrelevant guff, when asked to show your ticket, you did not have one, end of. Section 18 bye-law offence, you will likely get an £80 fixed penalty notice plus have to pay whatever fare was not paid (if any) providing it is your first offence. No criminal record will result from a fixed penalty notice.

Remember to keep your ticket with you until after you leave the station next time.

 

[najaB]

Remember to keep your ticket with you until after you leave the station next time.

More importantly, purchase the correct ticket(s) for the journey you are making. A Scarborough to Leeds ticket isn't (as far as I'm aware) valid for a journey from Scarborough to Leeds to Garforth.

 

[SussexMan]

Hi thats right I had a Scarborough to York ticket ...

Yep we both had Scarborough to Leeds tickets

The actual tickets were for Scarborough to Bramley.

I'm lost.

 

[island]

Quite.

The OP would be very well advised to have a long and careful think about what tickets, if any, he actually held before taking further action that may lead to the matter becoming more serious.

 

[34D]

My comments apply to flexible tickets and not to advances.

A scarborough to garforth ticket is only available in 'route direct' form. That said, asking guards before boarding, especially if times work better, would probably see permission given.

A scarborough to bramley ticket is also 'route direct' but by definition one needs to change train, either in York, Leeds, or both.

Sadly the posters who have advised you are guilty of a byelaw 18 offence are correct.

To emphasise, had you been on one of the two trains each hour from York to Leeds that stopped at Garforth you would have been absolutely fine.

Final question: is there any particular reason why you needed to help your partner in Leeds station? Ie walking difficulties?

 

[Craiguk]

To sum up.

The tickets where bramley to scarbrough return.

We got on the train from scarbrough and as the conductor came round to check between york and leeds i asked him if i could buy a ticket for leeds to garforth and he said no because his ticket machine hadnt been set up for that route.

The reason I didnt get off at York and wait for a garforth train is we also had our 18 month child with us and my partner wanted me to help her off the train in Leeds with the pram, child and several overnight bags as we had stayed in scarbrough the night before so she could get only the Bramley train.

I only had a few minutes to get on the Garforth train at Leeds and fully expected to be able to buy ticket once on board.

Once at Garforth i approached the ticket inspector and asked if i could buy a ticket he said no and asked why I hadnt got one. I explained that I have just got the train to leeds from scarborough with my partner and child and she wanted help with the pram bags and child getting of the train and i didnt have time to get the ticket before I got on the garforth train and thought i could purchase on the train. He asked for my details and said i would get a letter asking for the leeds to garforth fair.

I now have both tickets from my OH and am preparing to respond to the letter basically outlining the above.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ticket machines are not set up by route

 

[Craiguk]

Thanks artic

 

[najaB]

We got on the train from scarbrough and as the conductor came round to check between york and leeds i asked him if i could buy a ticket for leeds to garforth and he said no because his ticket machine hadnt been set up for that route.

That is a very odd thing for a guard to say as their ticket machines can sell pretty much any ticket - you can be on a train from York to Leeds and buy a ticket from Inverness to Thurso. Did you perhaps misunderstand what he said?

 

[455driver]

It looks like there are 3 trains an jour from Leeds to Garforth so you could have bought a ticket and caught a later train!

Did you help your other half onto her next train?
If she was going to struggle at Leeds how was she going to manage any better at Bramley?

 

[Craiguk]

Because she had to rush to get her train too at leeds but once at bramley she wouldn't need to rush anywhere.

 

[theblackwatch]

Because she had to rush to get her train too at leeds but once at bramley she wouldn't need to rush anywhere.

And there was me thinking the train had "wizzied past were you wanted to get off".

 

[ian959]

What happened was I wanted to get off at garforth in Leeds and had been on the same train since Scarborough think it was the black pool north service. For those that don't know garforth is on the same line as travelling to Leeds and blackpool north stops there on some services. So as we wizzied past were I wanted to get off. Once I arrived in Leeds I got onto the garforth train which was leaving a few minutes later.

So basically your OP is a load of cobblers? You knew you were on the right train because you were actually going to Leeds, not to Garforth? Sorry, but this is really sounding like an "is my story going to get me out of a mess" request.

Your best bet right now is probably to just tell them to send you a fixed penalty notice... the hole you are digging is not getting any shallower.

 

[455driver]

Because she had to rush to get her train too at leeds but once at bramley she wouldn't need to rush anywhere.

Again there are 3 trains an hour from Leeds to Bramley so no need to rush, one of the trains actually stops at Garforth so you could have easily got off a train from York at Garforth and helped her onto the Bramley train there.
If she was genuinely going to struggle that much then she could have travelled-
Scarborough to York, York to Garforth, Garforth to Bramley.

A good prosecuter would hang you out to dry!
Actually a poor one would.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

That is a very odd thing for a guard to say as their ticket machines can sell pretty much any ticket - you can be on a train from York to Leeds and buy a ticket from Inverness to Thurso. Did you perhaps misunderstand what he said?

Well that is something I have learned from this whole thing...

 

[ainsworth74]

This situation is very confusing and the OP appears to be changing their story or leaving out key details. Therefore I feel it best to lock this thread as I don't see how anything constructive can come from this discussion. For the OP here is some general guidance on how to proceed:

It is up to you how you respond to their request for your version of events but it would be wise to tell the truth at this stage as lying is likely to make the situation worse. The story you've told us so far is confusing and contradictory so I would strongly suggest you think carefully about what actually happened that day and what tickets were actually held by yourself whilst travelling. By all means include them (or copies of them) in your response but ensuring that you're truthful and clear is the priority. Again, lying at this stage is more likely to make the situation worse than better.

You can also consider replying stating that you're very sorry for your mistake, that you will never do so again, that you are willing to pay the fare outstanding and any administration costs they've incurred.

In our experience replying along the lines of the above may sometimes (but not always) enable you to avoid court and a potential criminal record.

If the TOC decide to prosecute you then you have a few options:

1) Defend your case in court by pleading not guilty. You'll need to be able to defeat the evidence that the prosecution will bring against you. Further if you're found guilty you'll not only face a fine and potentially a criminal record but also the other sides costs (you would also lose the advantage in sentencing of an early guilty plea potentially reducing the fine).

2) Plead guilty and accept a fine and potential criminal record.

3) Write directly to the TOC apologising for your actions and offering to pay the fare outstanding and whatever costs they've incurred so far. They may opt to accept a payment from you directly and avoid court or they may wish to proceed to court.

Finally, and especially if they do take you to court, you should strongly consider seeking professional legal advice even if it's only a 30 minute free consultation. Whilst specialists in railway law are available they are not common and charge a great deal for their services. However, a local firm dealing in criminal law defence should be able to provide adequate assistance.

You may wish to consult the Legal section of our Ticketing Guide for more information and with particular reference to this section and this section.