Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Ploughman]

But there is on the Calder Valley line from Mirfield through Sowerby Bridge.

 

[edwin_m]

But there is on the Calder Valley line from Mirfield through Sowerby Bridge.

There is, but it doesn't use any of the section under discussion. Operationally the route from Sowerby Bridge into just west of Leeds via Bradford might be converted to tramway, with tram-trains continuing either end and other train types banned. But I think this would create lots of new problems without solving many existing ones. For example Grand Central or similar long-distance services couldn't run, and the only service to Halifax would be tram-trains which are worse for speed, comfort and capacity on a route that probably needs more of each.

 

[WestRiding]

The idea of TramTrain is designed to run amongst proper trains. Sheffield TramTrain runs with all sorts of freight all day long, as well as Northern and Transpennine Express. I'm not understanding the banning of Real Trains if TramTrain became a thing, which it won't.

 

[edwin_m]

The idea of TramTrain is designed to run amongst proper trains. Sheffield TramTrain runs with all sorts of freight all day long, as well as Northern and Transpennine Express. I'm not understanding the banning of Real Trains if TramTrain became a thing, which it won't.

If a section of line carries only tram-trains then it can be re-designated as tramway and removes the need for most signalling, station footbridges etc. If you can't do that, and you aren't running off the railway onto new infrastructure, then what's the point of running tram-trains?

 

[snowball]

Yorkshire Post quoting Boris Johnson

More to be revealed on Northern Powerhouse Rail in 'next few days' Boris Johnson says

Ministers will reveal more about the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project in the “next few days” Boris Johnson has said, hailing the project as “fantastic” for the north.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

More to be revealed on Northern Powerhouse Rail in 'next few days' Boris Johnson says​

Ministers will reveal more about the Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project in the “next few days” Boris Johnson has said, hailing the project as “fantastic” for the north.​

Meanwhile the Birmingham Mail quoting Grant Shapps

MSN

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said "a lot has changed" since plans for the HS2 high speed rail line were drawn up, in a heavy hint that the eastern leg of the line will be delayed or cancelled.

Speaking at a fringe event during the Conservative conference in Manchester, Mr Shapps highlighted new rail schemes currently in the pipeline. They include Northern Powerhouse Rail, connecting the North East and North West, and the Midlands Rail Hub, which will connect the West Midlands with the East Midlands.

Could mean that publication of the much-delayed Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and North is imminent and will not wait for the budget at the end of this month.

 

[LittleAH]

It's going to be in and around the spending review. My money is still on:

Eastern leg to be binned off under the guide that it is paused.
NPR to go via Huddersfield with some new infrastructure between Huddersfield and Manchester.

 

[Roast Veg]

I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse, but I'd consider it more likely that both Huddersfield and Bradford lose their connection on BCR grounds. Agreed that HS2 East is likely (sadly) shelved indefinitely.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could mean that publication of the much-delayed Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and North is imminent and will not wait for the budget at the end of this month.

Presumably No 10, Sunak and Shapps have agreed enough of the Spending Review to allow them to be upbeat at the Tory Conference about NPR/MC approval.
But that doesn't mean they have agreed all the small print about routes and phasing.
The Northern politicians/agencies will still be in the dark until a delivery framework is announced.
Presumably HS2 East will go on the back burner, apart from its NPR elements, if there are any.

 

[quantinghome]

Presumably HS2 East will go on the back burner, apart from its NPR elements, if there are any.

and MC elements. But once you've got new lines built from Birmingham to the East Midlands (MC), and from Leeds to Sheffield (NPR), there's a pretty obvious missing link between them. Hence why HS2 East in my view remains the most logical way of proceeding. But logic was never this government's strongest point.

 

[Purple Orange]

and MC elements. But once you've got new lines built from Birmingham to the East Midlands (MC), and from Leeds to Sheffield (NPR), there's a pretty obvious missing link between them. Hence why HS2 East in my view remains the most logical way of proceeding. But logic was never this government's strongest point.

Reading the FT article, it suggests that there wont be any eastern branch for the forseable future. Meanwhile the Manchester-Leeds line gets a promoted.

 

[snowball]

I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse, but I'd consider it more likely that both Huddersfield and Bradford lose their connection on BCR grounds. Agreed that HS2 East is likely (sadly) shelved indefinitely.

What Huddersfield connection?

 

[quantinghome]

Reading the FT article, it suggests that there wont be any eastern branch for the forseable future. Meanwhile the Manchester-Leeds line gets a promoted.

I read it. I was responding to the suggestion of retaining of elements the HS2 Eastern leg. The argument against the eastern leg made by Andy Street (West Mids mayor) and others is that regional connections are more important. But by the time you've built those regional connections, you may as well build the whole thing.

 

[Roast Veg]

What Huddersfield connection?

This one:

NPR to go via Huddersfield with some new infrastructure between Huddersfield and Manchester.

The political punch out between Bradford and Huddersfield has been long-lasting for NPR, though almost certainly doesn't have much bearing on the actual route surveys being done by the NPR team.

 

[snowball]

This one:

In other words you're saying there will be no NPR at all. That would not be compatible with what Johnson said on TV yesterday and is quoted as saying by the Yorkshire Post in #256.

 

[quantinghome]

The political punch out between Bradford and Huddersfield has been long-lasting for NPR, though almost certainly doesn't have much bearing on the actual route surveys being done by the NPR team.

Huddersfield has never featured as a stop on NPR on the high level plans produced by TfN. The Transpennine Upgrade will give Huddersfield high-frequency 20-minute journeys to both Leeds and Manchester which makes it one of the best connected large towns in the North. Outside online forums, I don't believe there's ever been a serious consideration of routing NPR via Huddersfield.

 

[snowball]

Huddersfield has never featured as a stop on NPR on the high level plans produced by TfN. The Transpennine Upgrade will give Huddersfield high-frequency 20-minute journeys to both Leeds and Manchester which makes it one of the best connected large towns in the North. Outside online forums, I don't believe there's ever been a serious consideration of routing NPR via Huddersfield.

There were a whole load of reports across the media a couple of months ago.

 

[quantinghome]

There were a whole load of reports across the media a couple of months ago.

I stand corrected. Just seen this TfN report: TFTN_-_NPR_At_a_Glance.pdf (transportforthenorth.com) where it states "Upgrades akin to a new line via Huddersfield are also being assessed, including options for serving both Bradford and Huddersfield".

That said, it's been clear that TfN's preferred route for NPR is via Bradford and not Huddersfield.

 

[Purple Orange]

Huddersfield has never featured as a stop on NPR on the high level plans produced by TfN. The Transpennine Upgrade will give Huddersfield high-frequency 20-minute journeys to both Leeds and Manchester which makes it one of the best connected large towns in the North. Outside online forums, I don't believe there's ever been a serious consideration of routing NPR via Huddersfield.

The NIC report had a via Huddersfield and a via Bradford option. It was also costed as there being several billion difference in cost between the two (i dont recall the value though).

 

[edwin_m]

Huddersfield could be (or could be spun as) an initial phase. Build about half the eventual route and connect to the Diggle line, which can be brought into service more quickly, avoids the slow section through Stalybridge and takes advantage of the section upgraded by TRU. Provision to add the rest of the route via Bradford at a later date.

 

[Starmill]

It's always going to be more difficult to understand the technical processes while the government insist on being so slippery about exactly what they are and aren't funding. Imagine if we were healthcare infrastructure enthusiasts being told that the government were building "forty new hospitals"!

 

[Roast Veg]

In other words you're saying there will be no NPR at all. That would not be compatible with what Johnson said on TV yesterday and is quoted as saying by the Yorkshire Post in #256.

I'm saying that the benefit of not serving either of Bradford or Huddersfield, and creating faster more direct services to Manchester from Leeds, might win out over the benefit of serving either one.

 

[snowball]

I'm saying that the benefit of not serving either of Bradford or Huddersfield, and creating faster more direct services to Manchester from Leeds, might win out over the benefit of serving either one.

Where could NPR possibly go if it served neither Bradford nor Hudds? The area consists of steep narrow built-up valleys.

 

[Glenn1969]

It could be built with no intermediate stops. Or (as I have always thought would happen) it could not be built at all and us be left with just the Transpennine Upgrade

 

[D6130]

Where could NPR possibly go if it served neither Bradford nor Hudds? The area consists of steep narrow built-up valleys.

I strongly suspect that most of it will be in lengthy and very expensive tunnels, like the high-speed line between Bologna and Florence in Italy....with the occasional viaduct crossing the deeper valleys between tunnels.

 

[Roast Veg]

I strongly suspect that most of it will be in lengthy and very expensive tunnels, like the high-speed line between Bologna and Florence in Italy....with the occasional viaduct crossing the deeper valleys between tunnels.

I also suspect this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I strongly suspect that most of it will be in lengthy and very expensive tunnels, like the high-speed line between Bologna and Florence in Italy....with the occasional viaduct crossing the deeper valleys between tunnels.

Bologna-Florence is about 100km (62 miles), more like a Manchester-York distance, nearly all in tunnel.
There are also no population centres of any significance en route, and the line carries the entire national high-speed north-south traffic (like HS2 south of Birmingham).
Such a line for NPR (40 miles Manchester-Leeds) would serve as the HS route for London/Birmingham-Leeds, and take all the Liverpool/Manchester-Leeds TP traffic off the classic routes, which would be left with regional/local services.
Italy's older Bologna-Florence route, the 1930s Direttissima, which itself has tunnels up to 19km long, now has just an hourly regional service (and probably a lot of freight).

There would be construction and environmental benefits of a long Pennine tunnel, and it would benefit Leeds and Manchester (and further afield), but it it would be unlikely to serve Huddersfield, Bradford or Sheffield, or any intermediate points.
It would amount to replacing the eastern leg of HS2, which would not get past the river Trent (East Midlands Parkway to Leeds is about 80 HS2 miles).
Other main line tunnel lenghs are: HS2 Phase 1 about 24 miles, HS1 16 miles, Crossrail 14 miles (Y-shape).

I guess I am speculating again...

 

[Bald Rick]

There would be construction and environmental benefits of a long Pennine tunnel

What are those?

 

[ABB125]

What are those?

Presumably fewer tunnel portals means less environmental impact? And I'm guessing that just pressing "go" on the tunnel machine* ("see you on the other side in three years") is easier than having several gaps in the tunnel where it briefly surfaces? Or am I talking complete nonsense?!


*Yes, I know there's slightly more to it than that!

 

[LittleAH]

Huddersfield has never featured as a stop on NPR on the high level plans produced by TfN. The Transpennine Upgrade will give Huddersfield high-frequency 20-minute journeys to both Leeds and Manchester which makes it one of the best connected large towns in the North. Outside online forums, I don't believe there's ever been a serious consideration of routing NPR via Huddersfield.

That's because TfN are nothing but a talking shop. As reported last year in the Yorkshire Post, several billion can be trimmed off the cost of NPR is it runs via Huddersfield, no doubt merging in with TRU works. Which makes sense.

 

[Glenn1969]

That's because TfN are nothing but a talking shop. As reported last year in the Yorkshire Post, several billion can be trimmed off the cost of NPR is it runs via Huddersfield, no doubt merging in with TRU works. Which makes sense.

But then it isn't NPR. it's just TRU and no one else benefits