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Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

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quantinghome

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You can still do light rail without NPR
Light Rail Leeds-Bradford would depend on relieving the current line through new Pudsey of its long distance traffic. Without HS2 you'd have to build it along a different non-rail corridor - much more expensive to build and a much slower service.
 
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YorksLad12

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Light Rail Leeds-Bradford would depend on relieving the current line through new Pudsey of its long distance traffic. Without HS2 you'd have to build it along a different non-rail corridor - much more expensive to build and a much slower service.
Drifting off-topic, but if you were connecting Leeds and Bradford with a light train or tram system you wouldn't be running through Bramley or New Pudsey stations, you'd follow the A647 at both ends to reach more people. That might not be what WYCA says in it 2040 Mass Transit Cunning Plan, of course, but the more expensive option would be the better one.

On topic: I know the fast services are supposed to come down to around 40-45 minutes calling at Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester only but how much faster will the other services be? I'm assuming the semi-fasts will stop additionally at Dewsbury and Stalybridge but not anywhere else.
 

Mollman

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Would that be a bad thing? Full TRU would result in 4 fast in less than 40 mins between Leeds & Manchester plus 2 semi-fast, 2 stoppers and full electrification
Would need electrification to Hull and Middlesbrough as a minimum to go along with it.
 

Ianno87

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Would need electrification to Hull and Middlesbrough as a minimum to go along with it.

With bi-mode stock available, how does wires to Hull and Middlesbrough help the journey time between Manchester and Leeds?
 

Mollman

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With bi-mode stock available, how does wires to Hull and Middlesbrough help the journey time between Manchester and Leeds?
Just saying that if they cancel NPR then some places will not benefit from TRU to the same extent - Hull already feels like the unwanted child of TPE. Yes there are bi-modes but pure EMUs will be beneficial to the Leeds - Manchester section through reduction in track wear.
 

snowball

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I'd bank on a TRU announcement in early Autumn ahead of the IRP/Spending review.
I think that's unlikely, on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. They need to give the appearance of coherent thinking, concealing the chaos underneath. So no announcement before the IRP. Construction on Colton to Church Fenton, design work on several sections, and preparation for the public inquiry on Hudds to Westtown, can all continue without any announcement.
 

hwl

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Electrification should happen regardless, especially on the line in to Hull.
Still needs to get through a business case... so you want as much of the cost in other schemes as possible e.g. Neville Hill - Micklefield covered by TRU so none of that cost is associated with a Hull scheme.
 

LittleAH

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What sort of announcement could be made? With TRU, the glaring hole is Huddersfield-Stalybridge and Stalybridge-Piccadilly, so could NPR be what fills this gap?
That Manchester - York will be full electrification.

Let's be brutally honest. Treasury and DfT are more than likely pulling HS2E and NPR and this is the carrot to dangle to the North.

It's all about politics and saving face now.
 

507020

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Still, needs doing, one way or the other. The plan, way back when, was that the local services would be sent into a tunnel at Broad Green and become part of Merseyrail. Thus, it was presumed a near certainty that four overground tracks would be never needed again.

As well as equipment on the trackbed, the supports of the Queen's Drive flyover currently leave no space for four-tracking. However, there are plans to demolish this flyover, so there will be an opportunity to remove this constraint. The other issue is Wavertree Station, which pretty much would need rebuilding.

These complications may mean revisiting the tunnel option but if the locals go underground, Wavertree will need the long distance services to call at it. It currently has 4tph and I don't think you could get away with dramatically reducing that. Otherwise, you'd have to consider a new underground station to replace the existing one, or put the long distance services in a tunnel instead.
Was the plan not a tunnel at Edge Hill? Of course 4 tracks are needed again almost everywhere they ever existed and perhaps have always been needed in reality. Wavertree station, on the West Coast Main Line needs rebuilding, along with Sefton Park station. Wavertree Technology Park station, which I visited last week, suffered the misfortune of being built in 2000 while the line was only 2 tracks and of course has never had provision for 4 tracks through it. 1960s concrete structures such as the Queen’s Drive flyover are life expired and will need demolishing before they collapse.
Light Rail Leeds-Bradford would depend on relieving the current line through new Pudsey of its long distance traffic. Without HS2 you'd have to build it along a different non-rail corridor - much more expensive to build and a much slower service.
Why would you run light rail from Leeds to Bradford via New Pudsey? The station siting is absolutely useless, nowhere near anything in the town except a busy road junction and with no bus connections other than to the bus station, nothing to the other side of Pudsey. The line through the Greenside tunnel should have been retained and the Pudsey avoiding line closed.

Now, it is the most convenient line for long distance traffic to Bradford and Leeds via Halifax and in fact the only route to Bradford and Leeds from Halifax, so converting it to light rail would be crippling. A street running tramway around Leeds including a branch to Bradford via Pudsey may be a better solution, but that said, the roads through Pudsey are also unworkable. Perhaps the Greenside tunnel could be made use of.
 

quantinghome

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Why would you run light rail from Leeds to Bradford via New Pudsey? The station siting is absolutely useless, nowhere near anything in the town except a busy road junction and with no bus connections other than to the bus station, nothing to the other side of Pudsey. The line through the Greenside tunnel should have been retained and the Pudsey avoiding line closed.
Should haves don't create viable solutions today. I'd love a light rail line to go through the centre of Pudsey. If you can come up with a viable route segregated from general traffic I'm all ears.

Now, it is the most convenient line for long distance traffic to Bradford and Leeds via Halifax and in fact the only route to Bradford and Leeds from Halifax, so converting it to light rail would be crippling.
The line was previously four-track over some of its length, so you could retain heavy rail with light rail alongside over certain sections, then move away from the rail alignment where necessary.

Or why not convert the line to tram or tram-train all the way to Sowerby Bridge and divert longer distance Calder valley trains via Dewsbury? Only possible if space is freed up by NPR of course.

A street running tramway around Leeds including a branch to Bradford via Pudsey may be a better solution, but that said, the roads through Pudsey are also unworkable. Perhaps the Greenside tunnel could be made use of.
See above.
 

Gathursty

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Re: Liverpool Lime Street tunnel extension

I've no read all posts but has anyone thought of building the platforms out into the pedestrianised bit outside and building into the city centre towards St John's Market?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Re: Liverpool Lime Street tunnel extension

I've no read all posts but has anyone thought of building the platforms out into the pedestrianised bit outside and building into the city centre towards St John's Market?
That suggestion would not go down well with many in the Liverpool area, as it would greatly reduce the space between the railway station and the most iconic Grade I listed St George's Hall that is situated directly opposite it, which is of a neo-classical design containing concert hall and law courts, where construction vibrations could affect that building.
 

Gathursty

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That suggestion would not go down well with many in the Liverpool area, as it would greatly reduce the space between the railway station and the most iconic Grade I listed St George's Hall that is situated directly opposite it, which is of a neo-classical design containing concert hall and law courts, where construction vibrations could affect that building.
Some of the platforms would go that way but not the Intercity ones. If we can build Crossrail with sensors all over lots of important London buildings, I don't see St George's Hall as insurmountable.

I know I speak as someone who doesn't regard the immediate environs of Liverpool Lime Street as that noteworthy (Sainsburys, hotel, car park, student flats) but others may argue that there it would be awful to build out of Lime Street as opposed to back through the Tunnel.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Some of the platforms would go that way but not the Intercity ones. If we can build Crossrail with sensors all over lots of important London buildings, I don't see St George's Hall as insurmountable.

I know I speak as someone who doesn't regard the immediate environs of Liverpool Lime Street as that noteworthy (Sainsburys, hotel, car park, student flats) but others may argue that there it would be awful to build out of Lime Street as opposed to back through the Tunnel.
Would "that hotel" be the Adelphi Hotel, that has been a landmark building in that area, by any chance?
 

emoaconr

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Would "that hotel" be the Adelphi Hotel, that has been a landmark building in that area, by any chance?
I'm assuming the reference is to the Holiday Inn, formerly the St George's Hotel, in the 1960s St John's Centre.

Adelphi, despite its negative press, is as you say, a landmark, and is a little further out the way.
 

Gareth

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Was the plan not a tunnel at Edge Hill? Of course 4 tracks are needed again almost everywhere they ever existed and perhaps have always been needed in reality. Wavertree station, on the West Coast Main Line needs rebuilding, along with Sefton Park station. Wavertree Technology Park station, which I visited last week, suffered the misfortune of being built in 2000 while the line was only 2 tracks and of course has never had provision for 4 tracks through it. 1960s concrete structures such as the Queen’s Drive flyover are life expired and will need demolishing before they collapse.

The plan involved a rather large underground station at Broadgreen. Between there and Edge Hill, it may well have resurfaced but I've never really seen much in the point of that and being already underground would avoid needing to provide grade-separation at Edge Hill.

The Queens Drive flyover is being replaced primarily because the busiest flow is East-West rather than North-South. An underpass will be provided East-West and Queens Drive will hit a roundabout with a "hamburger" layout, where the mainline goes straight through the roundabout itself.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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A typical appraisal period might be 60 years of forecasting.
I should imagine some problems with that statement, as I cannot imagine a person of high managerial status based in the Hunts Bank, Manchester, offices of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway in 1907 being aware of the wholesale railway station closure programme that took place in the 1960's.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The line was previously four-track over some of its length, so you could retain heavy rail with light rail alongside over certain sections, then move away from the rail alignment where necessary. Or why not convert the line to tram or tram-train all the way to Sowerby Bridge and divert longer distance Calder valley trains via Dewsbury? Only possible if space is freed up by NPR of course.
Is it not the case that Sowerby Bridge is used by the York - Blackburn - Preston services as shown in the Northern Trains timetable 9? How would conversion of any part of that route to either tram or tram-train be comparable to existing heavy-rail journeys?
 

ABB125

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The North remembers...
A slightly delayed reply, but I read this and immediately imagined Boris Johnson riding a dragon that breathes high-speed railways instead of fire. (He has the right colour hair!)

I should probably now return to by corner whilst being laughed at...
 

Yindee8191

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A slightly delayed reply, but I read this and immediately imagined Boris Johnson riding a dragon that breathes high-speed railways instead of fire. (He has the right colour hair!)

I should probably now return to by corner whilst being laughed at...
If only creating high-speed railways was that easy!
 

GoneSouth

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Or why not convert the line to tram or tram-train all the way to Sowerby Bridge and divert longer distance Calder valley trains via Dewsbury? Only possible if space is freed up by NPR of course.
And given Bradford has somewhere close to 0% chances of ever being connected up to a new high speed line, that pretty much means Bradfordians will be able to go as far as Sowerby Bridge to the West and Leeds to the East … don’t think many would go for that!
 

D6130

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I don't think there is any between Sowerby Bridge and Leeds via Bradford, considering it would have to reverse there.
Correct....unless the Bradford avoiding line (Bowling Junction-Laisterdyke Junction) were to be reinstated. However it would still be a very hilly route with a severe weight restriction for freight trains - plus the junctions at the West end of Leeds face the wrong way for some of the freight flows and would force others to pass through the busy station. It's basically a non-starter.
 
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