Northern Platforms (3 car EMU vs 4 car EMU)

[tbtc]

When 319s come to Lancashire for the newly wired Manchester Airport/ Liverpool/ Blackpool triangle of services, would the platform lengths be long enough on other Northern stations for four car 319s to replace the three car 323s on routes like Glossop, Hazel Grove and Macclesfield?

I was thinking it'd make sense to have one class of EMU operating in the area, but wasn't sure whether platform lengths would thwart it

Similarly, are all stations served by the 321s/ 333s between Doncaster/ Leeds/ Bradford/ Ilkley/ Skipton able to cope with four car 319s? (AFAIK they all get four car EMUs at the moment, but the coach lengths may be different)

Since there'll be dozens of 319s released from Thameslink, this would be a good way of giving Northern a common fleet of EMU whilst releasing 323/333s for lenghening services in the West Midlands/ Anglia lines and possibly giving the 333s to someone else too

 

[northwichcat]

Considering some 319s are going to FGW and Northern currently have 36 units and have to run diesel units on services that could be electrically operated due to an EMU shortage, will that leave enough 319s for all the routes including those that are supposed to be electrified (as below)?

Liverpool to Manchester Airport
Liverpool to Manchester Victoria
Liverpool to Wigan
Liverpool to Blackpool
Hazel Grove to Preston
Manchester Victoria to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Blackpool (which could be switched to Northern)
Leeds to York

WY Metro would have a fit in the WY Metro sponsored 333s leave West Yorks and are replaced by much older units.

 

[Aictos]

When 319s come to Lancashire for the newly wired Manchester Airport/ Liverpool/ Blackpool triangle of services, would the platform lengths be long enough on other Northern stations for four car 319s to replace the three car 323s on routes like Glossop, Hazel Grove and Macclesfield?

I was thinking it'd make sense to have one class of EMU operating in the area, but wasn't sure whether platform lengths would thwart it

Similarly, are all stations served by the 321s/ 333s between Doncaster/ Leeds/ Bradford/ Ilkley/ Skipton able to cope with four car 319s? (AFAIK they all get four car EMUs at the moment, but the coach lengths may be different)

Since there'll be dozens of 319s released from Thameslink, this would be a good way of giving Northern a common fleet of EMU whilst releasing 323/333s for lengthening services in the West Midlands/ Anglia lines and possibly giving the 333s to someone else too

By my calculations, the 319s should easily be able to take over the existing 321s and 333s workings as all if the platforms take 333s then seeing as the 333s are longer then the 321s or 319s, this is no issue.

However, having the 319s replace the 323s is something else as the 323s are obviously shorter however I guess that 319s in 4 car formations could replace existing 323s working in 6 car formations by running more services then there is at the moment which would reduce the impact made by the loss of seats.

I do agree with your point of Northern having a common EMU fleet though.

 

[northwichcat]

Most of the smaller stations in Cheshire on diesel routes can handle 4 car 156s e.g. Mobberley and Ashley, so I wouldn't see why Handforth and the like should be different, though I can't find any information on platform lengths.

One issue with Alderley Edge and Airport shuttles is that an upgrade from 3 car to 4 car isn't really neccessary.

 

[4SRKT]

All the stations on the Leeds/Bradford > Wharfe/Aire Valley lines can take 4 car 333s, which have 23m bodies. So no problems here.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess that 319s in 4 car formations could replace existing 323s working in 6 car formations

Northern don't have enough 323s to run them in multiple, it's either a single 323 or a DMU in multiple. Multiple 323 diagrams have been suggested though, but that's assuming Northern get the London Midland 323s

 

[philjo]

There was an article recently in Rail (or may have been Modern Railways) outlining possible capacity increases for Peak hour services in the Leeds area.
It was planned to lengthen platforms on the Wharfedale Line to accommodate 6 coach trains. It didn't say what rolling stock this would use - presumably 2x 3-car units?
I think this was also the physical limit for the Skipton Platforms at Shipley due to the triangular junction.

 

[tbtc]

I do agree with your point of Northern having a common EMU fleet though

I can't beleive that an operator of so few EMUs (compared to fleets down south) is going to potentially have four EMU types (319, 321, 323, 333) running around, when they all do the same job, and fleets elsewhere would snap up spare 321s and 323s for capacity lenghening

As I've said elsewhere, it makes sense to give Manchester Airport - Blackpool to Northern if its going to be EMU run same as the Manchester Airport - Liverpool and Liverpool - Blackpool

 

[MCR247]

Why not combine the Crewe - Manchester via MIA with the MIA - Liverpool when it gets wires?

 

[87015]

I can't beleive that an operator of so few EMUs (compared to fleets down south) is going to potentially have four EMU types (319, 321, 323, 333) running around, when they all do the same job, and fleets elsewhere would snap up spare 321s and 323s for capacity lenghening

As I've said elsewhere, it makes sense to give Manchester Airport - Blackpool to Northern if its going to be EMU run same as the Manchester Airport - Liverpool and Liverpool - Blackpool

It doesn't really matter if the West and East fleets are different as they will be totally seperate though.

 

[northwichcat]

Why not combine the Crewe - Manchester via MIA with the MIA - Liverpool when it gets wires?

It would be a backwards step as Liverpool-Man Airport had stops removed between Piccadilly and the Airport to speed up the service and electrification is supposed to speed it up further, but if the train does all stops to the Airport after Piccadilly then the electrified Airport service will be slower than the diesel Airport service is currently.

 

[scrapy]

I believe the only issue with 319's over 323's on the Crewe line would be at the airport, where two 319's wouldn't be able to share the same platform, this would reduce flexibility as the xx11 Man-Cre and the xx17 Cre-Man currently often share one platform.

Platform extensions would be required at several stations on the Glossop/Hadfield routes and at Stoke (platform 3) before 319's could be used on these routes.

 

[northwichcat]

How good are the 319s at accelerating? They need to be rapid if they are going to do stopping services on the WCML and the Glossop line.

 

[4SRKT]

Isn't the point of 319s that they are dual voltage, and therefore wasted on services in Northern England?

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't the point of 319s that they are dual voltage, and therefore wasted on services in Northern England?

And aren't they used on some 3rd rail only routes currently, meaning the overhead equipment may need replacing before they can run on overhead lines?

 

[tbtc]

Isn't the point of 319s that they are dual voltage, and therefore wasted on services in Northern England?

With them being shunted off Thameslink work, where else would you put them? Anywhere they go, they'll have to be one or the other, there's no other lines that involve both types other than the North London Line (getting new stock) and the Moorgate branch of "Great Northern")

At least in the north west there's a chance of them running onto Merseyrail lines (yes, I know the platforms etc are for three car units, but at least it'd be a chance of interworking)

 

[northwichcat]

At least in the north west there's a chance of them running onto Merseyrail lines (yes, I know the platforms etc are for three car units, but at least it'd be a chance of interworking)

The platforms on Merseyrail stations allow for doubled up services i.e. 6 car.

 

[tbtc]

The platforms on Merseyrail stations allow for doubled up services i.e. 6 car.

Sorry, I thought some were three car only

 

[4SRKT]

At least in the north west there's a chance of them running onto Merseyrail lines (yes, I know the platforms etc are for three car units, but at least it'd be a chance of interworking)

Only if someone electrifies Allerton/Hunts Cross > Manchester, Southport/Kirkby > Bolton or Ormskirk > Preston to complement the existing planned electrifications. I don't suppose many of these are likely within the 319s' remaining lifespan, so Merseyrail will remain effectively isolated.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail needs "replacement" rolling stock fairly soon, with dual voltage being a suggested requirement, particularly for future expansion.

Liverpool Central is also ** apparently** set to get AT LEAST one new platform on the Northern Line which is a big capacity boost.

Electrifying Manchester-Hunts Cross should be a logical step to ensure all main access routes into Liverpool are electrified.

Also, Liverpool Lime Street is eventually going to hit capacity in the next 10 years or so, so perhaps it may be a good idea to look at more development at Liverpool Central so that trains can terminate there instead. Trains would just have to change to DC at Hunts Cross.

I would also imagine that it would be a good idea to electrify Preston-Ormskirk and Wigan-Kirkby with either OHE or DC rail either to expand Merseyrail services or to allow Northern to run a 319 into Liverpool City Centre. Preston-Ormskirk is not particularly difficult or expensive to electrify IMO.

 

[4SRKT]

I would also imagine that it would be a good idea to electrify Preston-Ormskirk and Wigan-Kirkby with either OHE or DC rail either to expand Merseyrail services or to allow Northern to run a 319 into Liverpool City Centre. Preston-Ormskirk is not particularly difficult or expensive to electrify IMO.

It may be a good idea (well, Kirkby > Wigan anyway), but that don't mean it'll ever happen!

 

[tbtc]

Only if someone electrifies Allerton/Hunts Cross > Manchester, Southport/Kirkby > Bolton or Ormskirk > Preston to complement the existing planned electrifications. I don't suppose many of these are likely within the 319s' remaining lifespan, so Merseyrail will remain effectively isolated.

I'd argue that these are the logical "next steps" to be wired, on the the Blackpool/ Bolton etc lines are electrified.

However, the powers that be would probably either not wire anything more up or wire up other areas - I think its better to increase coverage in busy areas rather than do a token bit here or there

The lifespan of the 319s is a fair point, but EMUs last a lot longer than DMUs

 

[4SRKT]

I'd argue that these are the logical "next steps" to be wired, on the the Blackpool/ Bolton etc lines are electrified.

However, the powers that be would probably either not wire anything more up or wire up other areas - I think its better to increase coverage in busy areas rather than do a token bit here or there

The lifespan of the 319s is a fair point, but EMUs last a lot longer than DMUs

I agree that ultimately Southport/Kirkby/Hunts Cross will end up electrified, but Ormskirk > Preston? A rural backwater if ever I saw one. Maybe rebuild the link between Burscough Junction and Bridge and provide a through Liverpool > Burscough service (third rail, natch)?

 

[tbtc]

I agree that ultimately Southport/Kirkby/Hunts Cross will end up electrified, but Ormskirk > Preston? A rural backwater if ever I saw one

...but surely a Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston service would compete okay with the Liverpool - Wigan - Preston service? Potential for services further north too...

 

[4SRKT]

...but surely a Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston service would compete okay with the Liverpool - Wigan - Preston service? Potential for services further north too...

Why would you want to compete? An (ultimately) electrified Liverpool > Wigan > Preston is the obvious route, serving major centres en route. Services further north can link into this. Expanding my previous idea of restoring the junctions at Burscough would see a 15 minute interval to Ormskirk (as now), with every other one going forward to Burscough Bridge. An hourly DMU Southport > Preston connecting at Burscough Bridge for the handful of people wanting to go Liverpool > Croston/Rufford. The only through journey possibility removed would be Ormskirk itself to Preston, but given that the current 90 minute frequency through service would be replaced by an hourly connection (could be on the same platform if designed properly), this seems a small price to pay.

 

[northwichcat]

Why would you want to compete? An (ultimately) electrified Liverpool > Wigan > Preston is the obvious route, serving major centres en route.

Yes the competition probably won't be as direct as a lot of people will think. The Liverpool-Stalybridge stopping service doesn't exactly compete with the Liverpool-Scarborough service even though both services serve Manchester and Stalybridge, neither does the Llandudno-Manchester service compete with the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service, one's a fast way of getting between Manchester and Chester, the other mainly services other towns liek Altrincham, Knutsford and Northwich.

 

[shinkansen1966]

When 319s come to Lancashire for the newly wired Manchester Airport/ Liverpool/ Blackpool triangle of services....

Wishful thinking.

Given the population served and the frequency of service, the Manchester-Preston-Blackpool service is top candidate for electrification. But I fear the project may be called off or delayed.

Between June and November of this year, expect various plans to trim public spending. It will be easier to cut a new rail project, than close down a school.

I've read that the new Thameslink trains are delayed. And that will mean delays for the cascading off 319 to other parts of the network. And as mentioned elsewhere here.

All the goverment have to do is explain this mess and cancellations in a form of words which the public will accept. And it's already started. The £7bn Inter City Express Programme has been delayed and is now being "reviewed".

 

[A60K]

And aren't they used on some 3rd rail only routes currently, meaning the overhead equipment may need replacing before they can run on overhead lines?

No, all Class 319s are with FCC for the Thameslink route and use both AC and DC equipment daily.

 

[mickey]

Merseyrail needs "replacement" rolling stock fairly soon, with dual voltage being a suggested requirement, particularly for future expansion.
[...]
I would also imagine that it would be a good idea to electrify Preston-Ormskirk and Wigan-Kirkby with either OHE or DC rail either to expand Merseyrail services or to allow Northern to run a 319 into Liverpool City Centre. Preston-Ormskirk is not particularly difficult or expensive to electrify IMO.

In which case there would be nothing stopping them running Preston > Ormskirk > Liverpool > Chester (via the currently non-passenger carrying but still very much active line linking the Northern and Wirral lines at James St.)... You laugh now, but such a service would actually be quite popular, particularly if it could continue to Blackpool and/or Windermere when those routes come online.

On a more realistic note, electrification on the Wrexham route has been high on several people's agendas recently (the WAG would fund much of it) and if dual voltage trains appear the case for OHLE south of Bidston appears much stronger.

Similarly, the Burscough curve is very high on the list, but it's most likely going to be designed for Liverpool > Ormskirk > Southport using DC rails.

 

[WatcherZero]

It is an interesting question that emerges as electrification spreads around the NW, how far to expand Merseysides 3rd rail network or to switch to OHLE. I was under the impression that their was a moritorium on significant expansions of 3rd rail.

Such that for example the one stop expansion under way is fine
Expanding as far as Wigan, iffy and would be the absoloute limit
Expanding to Preston via ormskirk, absoloutley not.