Northern Pacers?

[tom1649]

Apparently the answer is yes they will get new seat covers.

Some of the Merseytravel 142s, ex-ATN 156s and ex-FGW 142s have seen a damaged seat cover been partly replaced by a purple Northern one and they look visually terrible.

They do look visually terrible, I agree. I guess Northern have so much work with mechanically maintaining all these units that the interiors are a lower priority.

Having said that I went on a 323 the other week with the new seat covers and the interior smelt like something had died in there! Horrible!

 

[Bevan Price]

In Northern land this means absolutely nothing. With the Northern unit lottery anything can and will turn up on any service, regardless of what is booked! The only time they stick to the same stock is when a certain type is banned down a certain route eg. no Pacers allowed to Buxton, Clitheroe or Nottingham.

.

Yes, definitely a lottery. I was taking photos on the Penistone line one day in July, and the three units in use were one each of classes 142, 144 and 158.

 

[armadillomaste]

Sat on a pacer today and the seat just imploded.

I am heavy but i'm not massive.

 

[aylesbury]

thank god we dont have these abominations on our local routes from all the comments read on this forum and others they seem to be the trains from hell.Perhaps we should call them Beechings Revenge.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

.Perhaps we should call them Beechings Revenge.

It could actually be argued that they saved the railways from another Beeching - they were a low cost solution for lines and services that were losing money in the 60s and 70s; like Whitby and Colne, that didn't merit having massive amounts of money thrown at them in subsidy or improvements. I do wonder if the 14x fleet had never been created, just how much railways in the UK would have slmuped further.

 

[northwichcat]

thank god we dont have these abominations on our local routes from all the comments read on this forum and others they seem to be the trains from hell.Perhaps we should call them Beechings Revenge.

It could actually be argued that they saved the railways from another Beeching - they were a low cost solution for lines and services that were losing money in the 60s and 70s; like Whitby and Colne, that didn't merit having massive amounts of money thrown at them in subsidy or improvements. I do wonder if the 14x fleet had never been created, just how much railways in the UK would have slmuped further.

The reality is very few were ordered for the lines risking closure and the rest were just a cheap class 150 alternative and a lot of the lines that see Pacers now were never at risk from closure.

Lines like the Penistone line which did fall in to the risk of closure category now see an increasing number of Sprinters which means an increasing number of Pacers on other lines. Settle-Carlisle was at risk of closure and never got Pacers while the (at the time) low usage Cornish branch lines managed to get rid of Pacers due to how quickly they were wearing out the track.

 

[tbtc]

It could actually be argued that they saved the railways from another Beeching - they were a low cost solution for lines and services that were losing money in the 60s and 70s; like Whitby and Colne, that didn't merit having massive amounts of money thrown at them in subsidy or improvements. I do wonder if the 14x fleet had never been created, just how much railways in the UK would have slmuped further.

It's funny to read the comments on the "Beeching" thread that British Rail should have introduced lots more basic DMUs/ railbuses etc to keep costs down (and allow some routes to continue in operation), yet the same people hate Pacers.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember someone saying on here that they turned out to be not much lower cost than some of the 15* once sorting out the initial issues with engines and increased track wear and tear due to lack of bogies are taken into account (more for the teccies I think) !

That said, I've come to terms with some of the better Pacer classes as decent enough workhorses (I do listen to you lot sometimes )

 

[150001]

To clarify, are they being withdrawn in 2019; I swear I saw somewhere they weren't now; which is appalling!

 

[tbtc]

To clarify, are they being withdrawn in 2019; I swear I saw somewhere they weren't now; which is appalling!

Nobody knows for certain.

But the DDA regulations come into effect on 1 January 2012 which will require trains to be "accesible" (since Pacers have big steps to board, no disabled toilet etc it would cost a huge amount of money to upgrade them - given that they will be over thirty years old by then).

Some may be withdrawn gradually as lines are electrified over the rest of this decade, but (apart from the Valley Lines) the routes being electrified aren't very "Pacer heavy".

 

[northwichcat]

Some reported on another forum that Villiers is said to be looking at giving Pacers a temporary dispensation reported in one of the rail mags.

My response to that was:
That's if they can actually make Pacers last for 40 years. Buses that over 25 years old are mainly withdrawn from regular service, although a few remain as driver training units, school buses or emergency backup vehicles. While a 142 is a train version of a British Leyland bus.

Without any bias I think if Pacers are to continue in service they should be restricted to use on frequent services only, so the lines with only hourly services get DDA complaint trains on every service while some of the more frequent routes with a 15-20 minute frequency can get non-complaint trains on alternate services only.

 

[MattRobinson]

Nobody knows for certain.
Some may be withdrawn gradually as lines are electrified over the rest of this decade, but (apart from the Valley Lines) the routes being electrified aren't very "Pacer heavy".

Hopefully, the stock running on those routes will be cascaded to replace the pacers?

 

[northwichcat]

Hopefully, the stock running on those routes will be cascaded to replace the pacers?

If the Northern Hub goes ahead in full then a lot of the freed up DMUs from the Blackpool, Manchester and Liverpool electrification will be redeployed on new services e.g. Stockport-Denton-Manchester Vic or used to enhance frequency on existing services e.g. half-hourly frequency between Chester and Manchester via Warrington.

Also note Porterbrook saying it's non-economically viable to make existing single carriage units DDA complaint so something will need to replace single carriage units especially in the EMT and ATW areas where they are quite often used by themselves.

 

[150001]

I assume the 150s will be having DDA work done as well?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

142 pacers are used on the Blackpool South line.
Height of season and Pleasure Beach, still just a 2 coach 142, packed absolutely solid, DDA compliant would be impossible whatever train used!!

 

[tbtc]

I think if Pacers are to continue in service they should be restricted to use on frequent services only, so the lines with only hourly services get DDA complaint trains on every service while some of the more frequent routes with a 15-20 minute frequency can get non-complaint trains on alternate services only.[/I]

What diesel routes are there that meet your criteria of a 15/20 minute frequency?

Most routes which have that for part of the journey see hourly/ half hourly (etc) service at the "branches".

For example, Manchester to Bolton is frequent, but only hourly to Blackburn.

Manchester to Wigan is frequent, but only hourly to Kirkby (and half hourly to Southport).

Sheffield to Barnsley is frequent, but only to Castleford or Huddersfield.

Where do you draw the line?

Hopefully, the stock running on those routes will be cascaded to replace the pacers?

The stock freed up by electrification is going to be mainly longer distance trains (HSTs with EMT/ FGW, 222s with EMT, 185s with TPE, 170s with LM and FSR), with the exception of the Valley Lines stock and the FGW 165/166s (which don't have clearance to work on many lines).

I personally think it'd be hard to get a stock cascade working that ensured Pacers were replaced by units capable of running on Pacer services - e.g. a 158 or 170 might become spare, but their acceleration would be rubbish for meeting the "stop every five minutes" nature of a lot of Pacer routes.

Some Pacers will be directly replaced (Leeds - Batley - Huddersfield sees a few 144s, for example), but this is the exception not the rule.

 

[yorksrob]

Some reported on another forum that Villiers is said to be looking at giving Pacers a temporary dispensation reported in one of the rail mags.
[/I]

If they are, they should make up their minds quickly so that something can be done about the seating on the 142's.

 

[150001]

Really the trains that are going to be freed up are actually going to be a bit useless; apart from the 185s and 222s. The 170s with FSR aren't going to move are they? I would have thought they'd stay and possibly replace some 158s or 156s. Really we have no cascade stock to deliver a killing blow to the Pacer. The 150s aren't going to be enough in the end; looks like they're going to be around till 2020s which isn't impressive. I was doing some maths this morning and about 54% of multiple units, including the HSTs, Ic225s, Class 90s and Mk3 and Mk4 (all pre 90's, I did include the 319s so maybe a bit under that %)and is of an average age of 26.75 years. By 2020 this is going to rise and by then the 150s, 153s etc. will have done about 33-35 years service. They've been built incredibly well but as they get older they're going to start to become more unreliable and we can't rely on them for a long term replacement of the 142s. Electrification will eventually solve the problem though the 313s and 315s will be long life expired by then and the 317s are just as old in framework terms.

We're going to need a bi mode version of the 378 I believe; with a proper interior of course! This 378 would have a concealed gangway like the NEX class 253 did in Japan and be bi mode. It would be of 378 design but Aventra technology. This would mean as electrification happened up north they can have the diesel engines removed and be completely electric, similar to the IEP bi modes. Also this would standardize things and mean Derby gets a good lot of work. Riding the LM172s is a pleasure and really apart from no tables and some rather cheap plastic light covers (these are causing the slight vibration at times of gear change) and I wouldn't say no to more.

 

[northwichcat]

I assume the 150s will be having DDA work done as well?

I imagine at least some of them will be done. The ex-FNW ones do have accessible toilets. If it's too expensive to do them all considering their age then it could be they are permanently formed in to 3 and 4 car 150s with one accessible toilet and one non-accessible toilet in the 4 car versions and some of the 3 car ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What diesel routes are there that meet your criteria of a 15/20 minute frequency?

Plenty around Birmingham (such as Snow Hill lines) and some around London (such as LO routes) - the ones that get a frequent diesel service using brand new accessible trains, while villages in the Hope Valley get a less than hourly frequency using trains that aren't fully accessible!

 

[150001]

What could be done with the 150s is what you said; permanently put them into three car sets. Might be slightly expensive for their age but if the 150/2s were disbanded and inserted into the 150/1s to form three and four car units. Then remove the cabs and where the cabs were fit the DDA compliant toilet. If the ex FNW already are (I didn't know they were) then they can stay as they are. But the ex LM ones and potentially one day in the future, the ex GW ones could have this option done, saving the lost of seats in a two car set. I would also give the SWT 455 makeover; interiors gutted, new seats + panels(wooden style ones with light blue), new parts if needed, corrosion treatment and then a lick of paint with blue front window surrounds and the ex LM units receiving the high intensity outer headlights that the ex London Overground units have. This would mean more seats and a better quality ride for passengers. The problem though is cost and that actually units are lost (150/2s) meaning no Pacer withdrawals really.

 

[northwichcat]

If the ex FNW already are (I didn't know they were) then they can stay as they are.

The ex FNW ones have the accessible toilet but are not fully DDA complaint. Ironically despite FNW improving wheelchair access they didn't change the door controls from the original square push buttons (even though some unrefurbished 150s have had them changed for the Braille type) so they certainly aren't complaint for the visual impaired passenger.

 

[tbtc]

Plenty around Birmingham (such as Snow Hill lines) and some around London (such as LO routes) - the ones that get a frequent diesel service using brand new accessible trains, while villages in the Hope Valley get a less than hourly frequency using trains that aren't fully accessible!

The Snow Hill lines see hourly service to Wythall and Stratford, half hourly to Worcester/ Droitwich, a few other stations (Langley Green) which would
presumably be too infrequent for what you are talking about.

Same with stations between Walsall and Rugely only getting an hourly service.

Frequent LO diesel routes? The half hourly GOBLIN is the only one (the Thames Valley services are going to be EMU run shortly). Most frequent routes are EMU run.

No easy place to "hide" the Pacers.

 

[150001]

Do not replace the 172s with Pacers, bad idea!

 

[northwichcat]

The Snow Hill lines see hourly service to Wythall and Stratford, half hourly to Worcester/ Droitwich, a few other stations (Langley Green) which would presumably be too infrequent for what you are talking about.

You asked for diesel routes with at least a 15-20 minute frequency and I was pointing out that there are some in LM land. Litchfield City to Longbridge gets 4tph.

Frequent LO diesel routes? The half hourly GOBLIN is the only one (the Thames Valley services are going to be EMU run shortly). Most frequent routes are EMU run.

TfL says GOBLIN is every 15 minutes all day every day, as of May 2011: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/15409.aspx

London Overground may only have 8 diesel trains but FGW only have 8 Pacers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do not replace the 172s with Pacers, bad idea!

DfT may have to force a move if they want to give dispensation orders. I agree it wouldn't be good for LM passengers but it would be even worse for disabled passengers in other parts of the country if things were to stay how they are now.

 

[tbtc]

You asked for diesel routes with at least a 15-20 minute frequency and I was pointing out that there are some in LM land. Litchfield City to Longbridge gets 4tph

There are four trains an hour on the Cross City Line, but run by LM 323s.

The Snow Hill lines see the same problem as Pacer routes around Manchester, in that the "core" may be frequent by the extremes go down to just one or two trains an hour.

 

[150001]

I really can't see the 172s shifting off the Snow Hill lines. Its not right that there is a lack of disabled toilets for Northern but the 172s need toilets considering some trips are from Great Malvern to Dorridge with some peaks going to Leamington Spa. I use the 172s frequently and the toilet is useful at times and the 172s are a excellent train. One day Northern will get new trains you'd hope but the only solution I think is getting some bi mode Class 378s, Class 450s or Aventras.

 

[Surreyman]

Nobody knows for certain.

But the DDA regulations come into effect on 1 January 2012 which will require trains to be "accesible" (since Pacers have big steps to board, no disabled toilet etc it would cost a huge amount of money to upgrade them - given that they will be over thirty years old by then).

Some may be withdrawn gradually as lines are electrified over the rest of this decade, but (apart from the Valley Lines) the routes being electrified aren't very "Pacer heavy".

I too have heard that they cannot be made 'DDA' compliant but Roger Ford (Modern Railways has hinted that now maybe they can?)
Problem is, whilst all the Electrification schemes and probable cascades of DMUs might just be able to displace most Pacers, the timescale is very Tight, GW electrification/Crossrail/Thameslink/Midland Main Line/TPE/North West electrification/South Wales electrification/EGIP, etc etc would all have to work out so that 31/12/2019 deadline is met and that includes refurb/route training and in the case of class 165/166 gauge infrastructure work.
It is also now accepted that no more new DMUs will be built.
But Passenger numbers are still growing.
It will bring a groan from the North but the common-sense mid term solution from end 2016 would be to cascade 165/166 to GW & Wales, transferring most South Wales 142/150s to Northern in order to quickly provide more 4 car diagrams. (Popular not!)

 

[northwichcat]

I too have heard that they cannot be made 'DDA' compliant but Roger Ford (Modern Railways has hinted that now maybe they can?)

They can be made complaint but the cost would be extreme for units that might clap out a few years after the work was done.

It is also now accepted that no more new DMUs will be built.

By who? A lot of enthusiasts are saying they don't want to see new DMUs but it's not enthusiasts who will finance new trains.

transferring most South Wales 142/150s to Northern in order to quickly provide more 4 car diagrams. (Popular not!)

If some EMUs are available for the North that they can provide the extra capacity, assuming the redundant DMUs stay in service on other Northern routes. However, what is going to replace over 100 life expired non-complaint diesel trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the DDA regulations come into effect on 1 January 2012

You mean 2020. Although, any new train needs to be fully complaint now. At the time the date was set all Pacer and Sprinter stock was believed to have been life expired by then (unless a life extension program had been undertaken which could incorporate DDA) as well the 313s, 315s, 507s and 508s.

 

[sprinterguy]

It is also now accepted that no more new DMUs will be built.

No it isn’t. There are plenty of rural routes and probably even regional ones that are unlikely to ever see electrification, and certainly not within the lifespan of a new DMU. There are still plenty of opportunities for new DMU fleets.

 

[150001]

Could see more 172s then