Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[krus_aragon]

I definitely need to get a ride on a Pacer before they're withdrawn to see what they're all about - I hoped I would while I was in Northern land recently but was on the wrong route for them so got a refurbed 319 and an unrefurbed 156 instead which made me feel like I was in the 90s but not in the way I had hoped. Being in Wales I should probably just head "down South" and catch some from Cardiff to the valleys and back...

If you're heading to Northernland via Chester, the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester route is a likely place to find Pacers.

 

[Chris217]

Mostly 150s when I was on that line
a few weeks ago

 

[Mogster]

Southport to Atherton/Bolton to Manchester is still heavily infested

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you're heading to Northernland via Chester, the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester route is a likely place to find Pacers.

People often cite this route as being reliable when a Southerner asks about a trip to ride Pacers, but there are others which are far more likely to produce a nodding donkey (Huddersfield to Sheffield for example). Just because lots of rich folk are served by it so complain loudly about being made to ride in peasant-wagons?

 

[krus_aragon]

People often cite this route as being reliable when a Southerner asks about a trip to ride Pacers, but there are others which are far more likely to produce a nodding donkey (Huddersfield to Sheffield for example). Just because lots of rich folk are served by it so complain loudly about being made to ride in peasant-wagons?

I mainly cite this route because it's on the way from Wales to "Northernland". If you're looking for a Pacer, you may as well go via this route. If you get one, great. If not, well you've still made your way to Stockport/Piccadilly, which is a fairly reasonable place to start looking for them.

Bay platforms 5/6 at Chester is where I most often see Pacers these days (since moving away from Cardiff). I don't tend to travel on this route as my connecting train to Chester would be continuing to Manchester via Warrington anyway.

 

[anamyd]

If you're heading to Northernland via Chester, the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester route is a likely place to find Pacers.

Thank you

 

[anamyd]

Mostly 150s when I was on that line
a few weeks ago

Oh...

 

[anamyd]

Southport to Atherton/Bolton to Manchester is still heavily infested

Hmm, not really places I need to go to

 

[anamyd]

I mainly cite this route because it's on the way from Wales to "Northernland". If you're looking for a Pacer, you may as well go via this route. If you get one, great. If not, well you've still made your way to Stockport/Piccadilly, which is a fairly reasonable place to start looking for them.

Bay platforms 5/6 at Chester is where I most often see Pacers these days (since moving away from Cardiff). I don't tend to travel on this route as my connecting train to Chester would be continuing to Manchester via Warrington anyway.

Thanks

 

[LOL The Irony]

Oh...

It's a mixed bag really. Just hope to have good luck.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Sheffield and Leeds are havens still. The stopping services from Manchester to Sheffield usually produce a 142 with original bus seating, plus a nice long ride with great scenery.

 

[adrock1976]

As I require 11 of the Heaton Depot 142s for haulage, is it the general rule of thumb is that they are mainly to be found on the eastern side of the Pennines?

 

[xotGD]

As I require 11 of the Heaton Depot 142s for haulage, is it the general rule of thumb is that they are mainly to be found on the eastern side of the Pennines?

Yes - Tyneside, Teesside, Leeds area and Sheffield area.

There is a constant stream of them through Middlesbrough, for example.

 

[Bikeman78]

As I require 11 of the Heaton Depot 142s for haulage, is it the general rule of thumb is that they are mainly to be found on the eastern side of the Pennines?

Heaton and Newton Heath units do cross cover sometimes but in general the Heaton units will stay in the east. They work:
Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland
Newcastle-Carlisle
Newcastle-Sunderland-Middlesbrough
Doncaster-Scunthorpe
Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull
Sheffield-Doncaster-Adwick
Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds
Sheffield-Moorthorpe-Leeds

One is also booked 0621/1220/1823 Leeds to Southport, I saw that diagram yesterday paired with a 156.
They also do the odd working from Leeds to Harrogate and Newcastle to Morpeth.

They can turn up almost anywhere covering other units, e.g. yesteday 142017 worked Leeds-Brighouse-Huddersfield all day.

 

[Railweigh]

Sheffield and Leeds are havens still. The stopping services from Manchester to Sheffield usually produce a 142 with original bus seating, plus a nice long ride with great scenery.

They certainly are!

 

[Chris217]

The Heaton ones do venture west
sometimes.
142026 worked out of Lime Street
a few weeks ago on the Oxford Rd shuttles.

 

[ed1971]

I never understood why the original pacer power train had so many problems as it was virtually an auto version of the heritage dmu arrangement.
K

For a while this had me puzzled too. Why would someone take something that worked reliably, modify it and make it completely unreliable!
A while ago someone on another forum who had a lot of inside knowledge explained it. The SCG R500 Pacer gearbox had the forward/reversing gear on the input side of the gearbox. This was a major flaw as an epycyclic gearbox works best if all it's components always operate in the same direction. Consequently, the brake bands soon burned out with fires on some occasions. It was described as being like an oil filter wrench on a car; it will slip if turned the other way. It would have meant a major re-design of the gearbox and BR threw in the towel. I gather too that the Class 141s also suffered problems with the gearbox electronic control, which used about 32 relays. This was overcome by replacing it with microprocessor control.

The Leyland TL11 engines were okay on buses and coaches but on trains didn't like idling for long periods. It led to carbon build up in the cylinders melting the pistons and blowing the cylinder heads. BR found that it was more economical to buy in new Cummins L10s than to overhaul the TL11s. It was just as well really, as they were very noisy and sluggish when coupled to voith gearboxes.

 

[driver_m]

You'll still get them in Lime St. Always seems to be one or two coming off Allerton ECS in the morning .

 

[ed1971]

I quite like the Pacers, although I must admit I've mostly used them on short routes.
Wonder if it's feasible to design a modern version of them using similar constraints of the original project. Would be interesting to see the result.

That shouldn't be too difficult, but seriously you would have the carriages longer with bogies, flat entrances for disabled users and some proper doors that keep out the draughts. The full rail width of 2.83m should be retained for wide gangways. Maybe something along the lines of this German DEMU: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-d...n-sidings-at-knigstein-station-133945722.html

 

[ed1971]

Like them or loathe them.
Pacers deserve their place in history.
I like them a lot.
Although they were most interesting
to me when I moved up to Liverpool in 1989 as this was my first experience of travelling on them.
Many still had Leyland engines and self changing gears.
Great units for short local journeys.
The squealing round curves can be painful on the old eardrums but the click click on continuous joint track is what I liked back in the day.
Used to like seeing the GMPTE liveried ones. Reminding me of my home city and
"Pick an Orange" buses lol.
Those were the days.

Will miss them when they go though.

By mid 1989 the majority of the blue 142s and all the chocolate and cream ones except 142020 had Voith gearboxes, greatly improving availability. The 14 GMT orange livered 142s 1420001 to 142014 were the last to lose their SCG gearboxes. 142010 and 142001-5 in October - November 1990 then 142006 - 9/11-14 in early 1991.
Blue 142s still retaining SCG gearboxes in mid 1989 included 142028-33/49/52-59 and 142078.

 

[ed1971]

Heaton and Newton Heath units do cross cover sometimes but in general the Heaton units will stay in the east. They work:
Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland
Newcastle-Carlisle
Newcastle-Sunderland-Middlesbrough
Doncaster-Scunthorpe
Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull
Sheffield-Doncaster-Adwick
Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds
Sheffield-Moorthorpe-Leeds

One is also booked 0621/1220/1823 Leeds to Southport, I saw that diagram yesterday paired with a 156.
They also do the odd working from Leeds to Harrogate and Newcastle to Morpeth.

They can turn up almost anywhere covering other units, e.g. yesteday 142017 worked Leeds-Brighouse-Huddersfield all day.

The 1823 off Leeds terminates at Wigan North Western then returns to Manchester Victoria as the 20:44. It is the same diagram as the 09:24 Southport to Leeds. Generally it is a 142 and 150 coupled together. However, I have also seen 2 - 142s, 2 - 150s, or a single 142 or 150 on this diagram!

 

[gka472l]

The Heaton ones do venture west
sometimes.
142026 worked out of Lime Street
a few weeks ago on the Oxford Rd shuttles.

142096 was around Liverpool a couple of weeks back, 142086 was in Lime Street today.....

 

[adrock1976]

Heaton and Newton Heath units do cross cover sometimes but in general the Heaton units will stay in the east. They work:
Saltburn-Darlington-Bishop Auckland
Newcastle-Carlisle
Newcastle-Sunderland-Middlesbrough
Doncaster-Scunthorpe
Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull
Sheffield-Doncaster-Adwick
Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds
Sheffield-Moorthorpe-Leeds

One is also booked 0621/1220/1823 Leeds to Southport, I saw that diagram yesterday paired with a 156.
They also do the odd working from Leeds to Harrogate and Newcastle to Morpeth.

They can turn up almost anywhere covering other units, e.g. yesteday 142017 worked Leeds-Brighouse-Huddersfield all day.

Thank you very much for the above info.

 

[simon7929]

The Heaton units get almost everywhere on the Northern network. The Newton Heath ones very rarely venture North of York or East of Carlisle. As a result the NE tends to be solid HT based 142 territory. Heaton 142s are 142015 - 026/50/63-68/70-71/8/9/84/6-96. Newton Heath have the rest.

 

[davart]

Seem to remember 142013 on the Barnsley-Sheffield route back in the late 90s.

Think it sticks out as it was yellow rather than blue like most of the Regional Railways liveried ones at the time.

No idea where it is now however.

I don't really make notes of any numbers as such but do notice/am aware of them.

If anyone has a list of 142s or 144s they need to cross off, I could keep an eye out around the South/West Yorkshire area.

 

[matacaster]

For a while this had me puzzled too. Why would someone take something that worked reliably, modify it and make it completely unreliable!
A while ago someone on another forum who had a lot of inside knowledge explained it. The SCG R500 Pacer gearbox had the forward/reversing gear on the input side of the gearbox. This was a major flaw as an epycyclic gearbox works best if all it's components always operate in the same direction. Consequently, the brake bands soon burned out with fires on some occasions. It was described as being like an oil filter wrench on a car; it will slip if turned the other way. It would have meant a major re-design of the gearbox and BR threw in the towel. I gather too that the Class 141s also suffered problems with the gearbox electronic control, which used about 32 relays. This was overcome by replacing it with microprocessor control.

The Leyland TL11 engines were okay on buses and coaches but on trains didn't like idling for long periods. It led to carbon build up in the cylinders melting the pistons and blowing the cylinder heads. BR found that it was more economical to buy in new Cummins L10s than to overhaul the TL11s. It was just as well really, as they were very noisy and sluggish when coupled to voith gearboxes.

"This was a major flaw as an epycyclic gearbox works best if all it's components always operate in the same direction."

Designers clearly influenced by Francis Webbs compound steam locomotives. Webbs 4-4-0 (I think) driving wheels were known to occasionally work in opposite directions, leading to wheel slip and no movement at all!

 

[sprinterguy]

Seem to remember 142013 on the Barnsley-Sheffield route back in the late 90s.

Think it sticks out as it was yellow rather than blue like most of the Regional Railways liveried ones at the time.

It won't have been 142013 then as the Tyne & Wear PTE yellow units were 142017 - 022. All Heaton based of course. 142013 wore the GMPTE executive dark grey/white/red livery in the late nineties, and was originally one of the batch of fourteen GMPTE orange/brown units. It has remained a Newton Heath based unit.

 

[simon7929]

156465 out for Northern this morning at Glaisdale, pacer replacements starting to arrive at Northern.

 

[davart]

It won't have been 142013 then as the Tyne & Wear PTE yellow units were 142017 - 022. All Heaton based of course. 142013 wore the GMPTE executive dark grey/white/red livery in the late nineties, and was originally one of the batch of fourteen GMPTE orange/brown units. It has remained a Newton Heath based unit.

Interesting. Wonder which one it was then as it was definitely yellow!

 

[simon7929]

Merseyrail Pacers wore Yellow also. They wore the original darker version (142051-58) then the later version which also extended to 142041-49.