Northern "new" Trains.

[Andrew Nelson]

Hello everyone. Just seen this announcement on the Northern Website, just wondered if it's true, 'cos there are some glaring errors on it.

We’ve had some good news for our commuters in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester today. Transport Secretary Philip Hammond has just announced that twenty additional rail carriages are to be used on major routes into cities on the Northern network.

The extra carriages will strengthen trains at busy times from December 2011, adding more than 2,000 extra seats each day to our network. The five Class 322 electric trains will be used for additional peak time services between Leeds, Skipton and Ilkley, and between Leeds and Doncaster.

Will this not mean we are left with a small non standard fleet of just five units.

Once they’re in place it will mean we can move some diesel units from those lines to strengthen services on the Calder Valley line between Leeds, Bradford and Manchester Victoria.

I thought that the locals on Leeds to Ilkley/Skipton/Doncaster and Bradford FS, were all Electric 333s'.

Philip Hammond said: “Even at a time of severe pressure on public spending we cannot afford not to invest in Britain’s future – and that’s why we are investing more than £10m in providing these extra carriages for Yorkshire commuters. These extra trains will ease crowding and provide passengers with more comfortable journeys.’’

If these are new, fair enough, but if these are just moved from other TOCs' how can it cost £10,000,000?

Ian Bevan, Managing Director at Northern, said: “We’re really delighted with today’s announcement. We’ve attracted 36% more passengers since Northern began operating in 2004 and we’ve been working closely with the Department for Transport and other partners to get extra units to help ease overcrowding on our trains. ”

The extra units will be a welcome addition to our fleet but we’re continuing our discussions with the Government to acquire more carriages to ease overcrowding in other areas.

 

[387star]

Won't the 322s be good news for the non standard 321/9s especially if 322s become 321/9s which I think will happen. Eight instead of three is a bit better right?

I wonder what livery they will be painted in because I can't stand the 321/9 livery although at least the diagonal stripe is a no no with the swish now being deployed on all Northern trains but the 321s and 155s

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Won't the 322s be good news for the non standard 321/9s especially if 322s become 321/9s which I think will happen. Eight instead of three is a bit better right?

I wonder what livery they will be painted in because I can't stand the 321/9 livery although at least the diagonal stripe is a no no with the swish now being deployed on all Northern trains but the 321s and 155s

If they are so similar, then yes that's a good thing, what's the difference between a 321 and a 322?

 

[jopsuk]

NSE wanted a different class number for the Stansted Express. As far as anyone so far has been able to say, that's pretty much it.

 

[sprinterguy]

If they are so similar, then yes that's a good thing, what's the difference between a 321 and a 322?

Basically nothing. BR simply wanted to use a different classification for its’ dedicated Airport Express units to set them apart from the other run of the mill 321s (they originally had a different internal layout), a classification that is now irrelevant. It would be good to see them renumbered in the 321/9 series. Rather than giving Northern an additional small micro-fleet of 322s, it will give Neville Hill a larger fleet of 321 type units, which will negate the need for DMU substitution on the Leeds to Doncaster shuttles, as there will be more units available to work these services.

They are also to be used on additional peak time services on the West Yorkshire electric lines alongside the class 333s.

Given that they are going to be working alongside the 321s and 333s, I would think they’ll be painted in the Northern/WYPTE livery.
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It’s fascinating that this story has been spun as “good news for commuters in…Greater Manchester”: This topic has already been discussed (I can’t locate the thread though), and it seems that a lot of the DMU turns on the West Yorkshire electric lines are fill in turns as part of a larger diagram over diesel routes, so I’m not sure how many extra DMUs this move will actually free up for the Calder Valley services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hello everyone. Just seen this announcement on the Northern Website, just wondered if it's true...

We’ve had some good news for our commuters in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester today. Transport Secretary Philip Hammond has just announced...

Are these sort of announcements on the DfT's website usually not true?

OK don't answer that...

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Basically nothing. BR simply wanted to use a different classification for its’ dedicated Airport Express units to set them apart from the other run of the mill 321s (they originally had a different internal layout), a classification that is now irrelevant. It would be good to see them renumbered in the 321/9 series. Rather than giving Northern an additional small micro-fleet of 322s, it will give Neville Hill a larger fleet of 321 type units, which will negate the need for DMU substitution on the Leeds to Doncaster shuttles, as there will be more units available to work these services.

They are also to be used on additional peak time services on the West Yorkshire electric lines alongside the class 333s.

Given that they are going to be working alongside the 321s and 333s, I would think they’ll be painted in the Northern/WYPTE livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It’s fascinating that this story has been spun as “good news for commuters in…Greater Manchester”: This topic has already been discussed (I can’t locate the thread though), and it seems that a lot of the DMU turns on the West Yorkshire electric lines are fill in turns as part of a larger diagram over diesel routes, so I’m not sure how many extra DMUs this move will actually free up for the Calder Valley services.

So, where are they really coming from? I'm sure there are not that many DMU fill-ins on Leeds Doncaster Ilkley or Skipton surely?

 

[swt_passenger]

...but if these are just moved from other TOCs' how can it cost £10,000,000?

Easy. Leasing costs, crew costs and maintenance cost until the end of the franchise.

Easing overcrowding is not guaranteed to increase farebox revenue unless it attracts new passengers -which is the fundamental issue with the entire concept of train lengthening - whether in the Leeds/Manchester areas or in the Southeast.

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So, where are they really coming from? I'm sure there are not that many DMU fill-ins on Leeds Doncaster Ilkley or Skipton surely?

They are off lease from First Scotrail. There's loads of details about DMU diagram replacement possibilities in the earlier thread from when it was first announced by DfT, a week ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44129

 

[sprinterguy]

Aha! The thread I couldn't find! Thanks swt passenger

 

[junglejames]

I wondered about what Hammond said in the announcement. How has the DaFT spent the £10million. Surely its Northern that have spent it? If trains are so busy around there, then there must be money in the coffers to make lease 5 extra trains. Its not as if it all comes out at once.

Me being me, i reckon its Hammond trying to hijack a story. But hey, i could be wrong.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Once they’re in place it will mean we can move some diesel units from those lines to strengthen services on the Calder Valley line between Leeds, Bradford and Manchester Victoria.

So that bit is completely untrue then?

Just spin, or a Government Minister knowing nowt about it. (much the same relay).

 

[swt_passenger]

I wondered about what Hammond said in the announcement. How has the DaFT spent the £10million. Surely its Northern that have spent it? If trains are so busy around there, then there must be money in the coffers to make lease 5 extra trains. Its not as if it all comes out at once.

Me being me, i reckon its Hammond trying to hijack a story. But hey, i could be wrong.

The DfT will subsidise Northern by £10 million more than they were already. The DfT press release is linked to in the other thread, it includes this: "The £10m investment covers the net cost of additional passenger services for the period from April 2011 to the Northern Rail franchise end date 15th September 2013."

It's not difficult to understand really...

 

[tom1649]

Fewer DMUs under the wires has to be good news. I've read that some Leeds - Bradford FS trains will be able to run as 8 car in the peaks. I don't think the platforms are long enough on other routes though.

At least one Leeds - Doncaster diagram is regularly substituted for a DMU at present and every time I've been up there I've seen a DMU running services on the Airedale/Wharfedale.

I'm quite looking forward to it from a personal point of view. I love the sound of the DC motors on the 321s/322s.

 

[DarloRich]

Once again it is all lies! They are not new carriages as the article suggests. They are in fact then usual 15th hand crap no one else wants.

The benefit is, as stated above, that fewer DMUs run under wires and that rammed services get a capacity boost.

If only they were "new" trains - sigh!

 

[tbtc]

There's loads of details about DMU diagram replacement possibilities in the earlier thread from when it was first announced by DfT, a week ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44129

I'd suggest that the two are merged; the forty comments on there answer many of the questions on this thread (they are not new, they will replace one DMU for much of the day based on current workings, they are effectively the same as 321s so will avoid the current problems when one of the 321s is signed off).

It's not bad news, there is a lot of merit in it, but I object to the way it is being trumped up as a massive investment in new trains - the facts should speak for themselves (don't believe the spin).

 

[swt_passenger]

.. I object to the way it is being trumped up as a massive investment in new trains - the facts should speak for themselves (don't believe the spin).

It's still an investment in 'additional trains for the Northern franchise' though, it can't come at zero cost as at least one poster thought...

 

[Orange Box]

Once again it is all lies! They are not new carriages as the article suggests. They are in fact then usual 15th hand crap no one else wants.

The benefit is, as stated above, that fewer DMUs run under wires and that rammed services get a capacity boost.

If only they were "new" trains - sigh!

If the lines require £10m of extra taxpayer subsidy to opreate five 322s for under two years, how would they support financially a fleet of new build units? All well and good having nice low WYPTE subsidised fares but perhaps that doesn't help the economic case for investment. In a profit run industry who is going to pour money down a drain on multimillion pound new trains which will never even get close to providing a return on the investment?

 

[DarloRich]

@ Orange box - not tried getting a peak hour train into or out of leeds or manchester then?

LM cart empty trains about all day but they get a new fleet of 350/172 units

 

[WatcherZero]

If the lines require £10m of extra taxpayer subsidy to opreate five 322s for under two years, how would they support financially a fleet of new build units? All well and good having nice low WYPTE subsidised fares but perhaps that doesn't help the economic case for investment. In a profit run industry who is going to pour money down a drain on multimillion pound new trains which will never even get close to providing a return on the investment?

The government grants the operator a minimum revenue guarentee, if passengers are lower than a certain amount government will make up the difference and if they are above a certain amount the subsidy is reduced. The £10m seems high as its essentially the governments maximum potential liability that has to be budgeted, essentially that if not a single person used them the government would have to pay Northern their entire upkeep. The actual amount spent will be much lower perhaps half or less.

 

[sprinterguy]

@ Orange box - not tried getting a peak hour train into or out of leeds or manchester then?

LM cart empty trains about all day but they get a new fleet of 350/172 units

The peak hour trains on the Snow Hill lines are full and standing, they certainly aren’t just carting around fresh air. It’s also much easier to replace the self-contained fleet of 150s on the easily defined Snow Hill network, allowing the 150s displaced to be cascaded to Northern and FGW, than to attempt to allocate new trains to a particular part of the vast, diverse Northern network. While it is true that LM have more DMUs available than appears to be necessary, this is more to the detriment of EMT than Northern, due to the way the Central franchise was carved up.

 

[DarloRich]

The peak hour trains on the Snow Hill lines are full and standing, they certainly aren’t just carting around fresh air. It’s also much easier to replace the self-contained fleet of 150s on the easily defined Snow Hill network, allowing the 150s displaced to be cascaded to Northern and FGW, than to attempt to allocate new trains to a particular part of the vast, diverse Northern network. While it is true that LM have more DMUs available than appears to be necessary, this is more to the detriment of EMT than Northern, due to the way the Central franchise was carved up.

Soory poor drafting - i meant off peak past MKC

 

[Class172]

The peak hour trains on the Snow Hill lines are full and standing, they certainly aren’t just carting around fresh air. It’s also much easier to replace the self-contained fleet of 150s on the easily defined Snow Hill network, allowing the 150s displaced to be cascaded to Northern and FGW, than to attempt to allocate new trains to a particular part of the vast, diverse Northern network. While it is true that LM have more DMUs available than appears to be necessary, this is more to the detriment of EMT than Northern, due to the way the Central franchise was carved up.

I agree with all of that, especially the first sentence

 

[junglejames]

The DfT will subsidise Northern by £10 million more than they were already. The DfT press release is linked to in the other thread, it includes this: "The £10m investment covers the net cost of additional passenger services for the period from April 2011 to the Northern Rail franchise end date 15th September 2013."

It's not difficult to understand really...

But that would require seeing the DFT press release. Something i have not done.

Must admit though, its good to see private companies going running to the government to cover the leasing costs of additional rolling stock. Private companies doing exactly what it was planned they would do :roll:

Hey, at least all TOCs are consistent with each other though. Thats the main thing.
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It's still an investment in 'additional trains for the Northern franchise' though, it can't come at zero cost as at least one poster thought...

Nobody on this thread has suggested it'll come at zero cost.

Also, its an investment, but what people are getting at is the exageration and spin in the press releases. Although to be honest, new or old, i dont see the difference. Quite often old is better anyway. Just wish they would stop the spin.

 

[northwichcat]

The DfT will subsidise Northern by £10 million more than they were already.

The current subsidy Northern got was based on 0% growth. They've got something like 33% growth so had to return a large part of their subsidies. So maybe an additional 10 million is based on no growth in the Leeds area (as per the franchise terms) and if they get 25% more growth on those lines it would be significantly reduced.

With FGW it worked the other way around their subsidies were based on a certain level of increase BUT lesuire trips dropped substaintly due to the recession so they got extra DfT funding to compensate.

 

[tbtc]

It's still an investment in 'additional trains for the Northern franchise' though

New to Northern, yes. In the way that a second hand car is "new".

However, they are being spun as being "new" overall. The DFT website says

They form part of the 650 additional carriages the Government will introduce onto the UK’s rail network by 2014

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=419148&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true

...which suggests that these are additional carriages on the UK's rail network (rather than carriages moved from one part of the UK's rail network to another part). Counting them as "new" or "additional" in the nation-wide sense is either disingenuous or lying.

 

[WatcherZero]

The current subsidy Northern got was based on 0% growth. They've got something like 33% growth so had to return a large part of their subsidies. So maybe an additional 10 million is based on no growth in the Leeds area (as per the franchise terms) and if they get 25% more growth on those lines it would be significantly reduced.

Yes apparantly due to the growth ANY new or strengthened service they put on 40% of the revenue goes back to Dft because its over the original projections. Essentially every single route is now over cap and collar limits.

 

[junglejames]

New to Northern, yes. In the way that a second hand car is "new".

However, they are being spun as being "new" overall. The DFT website says



http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=419148&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true

...which suggests that these are additional carriages on the UK's rail network (rather than carriages moved from one part of the UK's rail network to another part). Counting them as "new" or "additional" in the nation-wide sense is either disingenuous or lying.

When i saw that quote from DFT, it made me wonder. Are the 650 new coaches just brand new coaches? I am now wondering if a lot of this is coaches that have been cascaded around, and so are 'new' to another operator.
If this is the case, then 650 is a play on figures, and spin. If it isnt the case, then calling these part of the 650 is a lie.
Either that or Mr Hammond really is not checking his facts.

 

[swt_passenger]

When i saw that quote from DFT, it made me wonder. Are the 650 new coaches just brand new coaches? I am now wondering if a lot of this is coaches that have been cascaded around, and so are 'new' to another operator.
If this is the case, then 650 is a play on figures, and spin. If it isnt the case, then calling these part of the 650 is a lie.
Either that or Mr Hammond really is not checking his facts.

He's carrying on the tradition of the last government though, who also announced all the cascaded stock such as the 321s to NXEA and FCC as being additional.
I expect it will be exactly the same when the 319s are eventually cascaded to FGW and NT when the NEW Thameslink stock arrives - they'll all be announced as additional stock to those areas, I'm sure.

 

[jon0844]

Were the 322s in use at the time, or in storage? If they were temporarily unused, I can see how they might get away with classing them as new trains - just as they could if they reinstated other worn out trains not being used today.

 

[junglejames]

Were the 322s in use at the time, or in storage? If they were temporarily unused, I can see how they might get away with classing them as new trains - just as they could if they reinstated other worn out trains not being used today.

They are all in use with Scotrail arent they? Just waiting for enough 380s to appear so they can head down south.