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Out of curiosity, I just searched on the Northern app for Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge tickets for tomorrow and, apart from some journeys showing as cancelled, there is no Do Not Travel warning showing so Northern would seem to have the sme responsibilities towards those purchasing tickets today.
Once the ticket is sold, they have to either convey the passenger or are liable for reasonable costs incurred by the passenger if the company refuses or fails to do so and refuses or fails to put an alternative in place
So, yes, anyone buying today who sees that warning but can select a service and purchase a ticket, can still form a contract , but if and when they remove trains from the timetable, the situation becomes less clear-cut...
So, yes, anyone buying today who sees that warning but can select a service and purchase a ticket, can still form a contract , but if and when they remove trains from the timetable, the situation becomes less clear-cut...
You could use same argument pay enough and a rail charter operator might consider the work.
Or (unthinkable) offer a special bonus / overtime premium to rail staff to encourage them to volunteer for overtime work, until they get act together and staff it properly with sufficient weekend staff
As a start all contracts for new recruits to train crew roles should have Sundays inside their basic core hours. That this hasn’t been in place for the last 20 years or more is astonishing. And no, they shouldn’t get more money for it: if they don’t want to work Sundays, don’t join.
Northern's communication is consistently diabolical, on a wide range of topics, both internally and externally.
Northern's leadership team and management are utterly incompetent (and yes, I expect they will be reading this, getting irate but refusing to learn from their mistakes, and trying to figure out if anyone is criticising them who they can make threats against, as that has happened before).
They probably are feeling the need to put out the strongest possible message to damp down demand, absent any ability to actually prevent ticket sales. The fact RRBs are being contemplated rather than simply crewing trains properly is an absolutely ridiculous situation to be in the first place, of course, and one that has recurred many times. Fundamentally though the company neither the incentive or ability to run the service property unless things change at an OLR level.
In terms of historical management issues there is indeed obviously a lot more going on under the surface, as @185 has alluded to.
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Rostering is set months in advance and train crew, just like any other group of employees, are entitled to be paid for attending work on work days, even if there is nothing for them to actually do.
Obviously there wouldn’t be any rest day work available on days where there are possessions etc.
Rostering is set months in advance and train drivers, just like any other group of employees, are entitled to be paid for attending work even if there is no work for them to actually do.
Obviously there wouldn’t be any rest day work available on days where there are possessions etc.
We still get some rest day working even with all those whose jobs are cancelled. Usually it’s because it is more than a 3hr movement from spare to the open turn, those spare don’t sign the required route, or of course for any last minute sickness after the list has been posted.
We still get some rest day working even with all those whose jobs are cancelled. Usually it’s because it is more than a 3hr movement from spare to the open turn, those spare don’t sign the required route, or of course for any last minute sickness after the list has been posted.
Yes fair point. I was thinking there of where entire depots are knocked out by possessions (in which case everyone will be spare other than standby) but yes if some services are running there can be early spare crew who are unable to cover later jobs etc. The same can happen on “normal” days too, of course.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Rostering is set months in advance and train crew, just like any other group of employees, are entitled to be paid for attending work on work days, even if there is nothing for them to actually do.
Obviously there wouldn’t be any rest day work available on days where there are possessions etc.
Why set rostering months in advance when there are so many unknown variables? Yes, it's reasonable that staff known in advance when they are going to be working, but in the NHS that would be the month before, not months before.
Why set rostering months in advance when there are so many unknown variables? Yes, it's reasonable that staff known in advance when they are going to be working, but in the NHS that would be the month before, not months before.
Why set rostering months in advance when there are so many unknown variables? Yes, it's reasonable that staff known in advance when they are going to be working, but in the NHS that would be the month before, not months before.
Probably because there just isn't any RRBs available in numbers to guarantee even a skeleton service on the routes affected. Those RRBs available will already be running between Bolton and Wigan, and. Victoria to Rochdale. Until guards start volunteering to work on their contracted day off (Sunday) again, instead of enjoying their contracted day off with family and friends etc then this will likely continue......
The situation for RR Buses will not improve especialy if futere bus franchising follows how it has gone in Greater Manchester. Virtually all the work has gone to big operators, small companies hve been wiped out of the school market which was there bread and butter, this will leave a shoetage of operators to fulfill this work.
Wasn't my safety culture investigation but was something I was privy to seeing the results of, in relation to several (repeat) operational incidents, specifically with guards. On the edges of the brief survey was the 'any further comments' (in relation to staff relationship with depot and ops standards management).
Ordinarily, staff tend to hold back when train operating companies conduct 'anonymous lolsurveys', but with an external body undertaking this, they didn't hold back... responses ranged from useful, revealing, appalling, to downright shocking.
It would be difficult to distinguish between those managers who are former traincrew and those who arrived from their graduate schemes. At several other operators, I've met outstanding and terrible examples from both, but at Northern I'm fairly sure many came from within the traincrew grades *but* essentially didn't really work as traincrew for very long, indeed some externals came from the airlines cabin crew, where staff - management relationships are often worse than those of a dodgy burger chain.
Tis easy to understand how Avanti's resourcing went from 57 RDW volunteers, to just 3 available drivers the day after their dopey ex-MD Mr Whittingham opened his mouth and slated them for having a day off.
The situation for RR Buses will not improve especialy if futere bus franchising follows how it has gone in Greater Manchester. Virtually all the work has gone to big operators, small companies hve been wiped out of the school market which was there bread and butter, this will leave a shoetage of operators to fulfill this work.
In a Manchester context and given Andy Burnham’s endless comments about integrating local transport, is there any reason why the Bee Network operators don’t have ‘helping out nationalised Northern Trains with RRBs’ as one of their KPIs?
Or am I missing something about how the setup works?
The problem is not just about "Pay enough and there will be buses".
RRBs have to have some form of disability access now and apart from the bigger bus companies, the smaller ones who take on this work with spare capacity won't invest in the new vehicles required just for the temporary contract to run on Sundays.
Service bus operations are at their absolute minimum on a Sunday. Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go Ahead will have vehicles sat around in depots all around the country. Accessible coaches perhaps not, but certainly accessible buses.
London in particular will have a couple of thousand vehicles sat around doing nothing on a Sunday (the total fleet is apparently nearly 9,000), and driving them up to Manchester would only take four to five hours. And bus driver wages in London aren't high, so if you offered drivers quad or five times time and two nights in a reasonable hotel while they do it you're going to get plenty of takers.
Every man has his price. If the price being offered doesn't result in anyone signing up, increase it until it does. Northern are saving a fortune not operating the trains - given the difference between bus and rail wages the bus drivers could be being offered quad time or even more - are they?
And finally as I already stated there is a massive amount of engineering work taking place this weekend so those RRBs and drivers that are available will have already been contracted out by Network Rail months ago leaving no RRB availablity for Northern.
If you're willing to get on the phone to every taxi operation in the country and pay as much as is asked, the number of available taxis is effectively infinite.
There are two problems as I see it - firstly, that TOCs contract with one operator who themselves limit who they contract with, and secondly that they are not willing to pay enough despite saving tens of thousands by not operating trains.
It simply is not good enough.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The situation for RR Buses will not improve especialy if futere bus franchising follows how it has gone in Greater Manchester. Virtually all the work has gone to big operators, small companies hve been wiped out of the school market which was there bread and butter, this will leave a shoetage of operators to fulfill this work.
On a Sunday there are likely about 5,000 or more urban buses not being used across the country. You just need to be willing to pay enough to the drivers to get them out.
Service bus operations are at their absolute minimum on a Sunday. Stagecoach, First, Arriva and Go Ahead will have vehicles sat around in depots all around the country. Accessible coaches perhaps not, but certainly accessible buses.
Northern are likely to issue this do not travel warning every Sunday between now and Xmas. It's the right thing to do unless staff contract terms change in that period.
Northern are likely to issue this do not travel warning every Sunday between now and Xmas. It's the right thing to do unless staff contract terms change in that period.
It's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to take the massive savings from not running trains and put it into paying the going rate for buses, at which point you will get them.
It's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to take the massive savings from not running trains and put it into paying the going rate for buses, at which point you will get them.
I can assure you that RRBs when they do operate are running very empty. Pointless waste of expenditure. So simply tell the public not to travel.....it's that simple and very effective.
If you think the railway is just an adjunct to car ownership rather than an essential public service that promotes a reduction in car ownership, perhaps.
Then it's even easier to arrange - run taxis if the demand is that low.
If you think the railway is just an adjunct to car ownership rather than an essential public service that promotes a reduction in car ownership, perhaps.
Pointless arguing with me.....the reality is ( and has been for some time now ) that Northern cannot provide a reliable service west of the Pennines on a Sunday. Simple tell the public that in very simple terms......and they do. And it works. I myself have only worked 3 Sundays this year ....and on 2 of them I found myself simply sat in the mess room watching TV. Whether anyone likes it or not, trains on northerns network cannot run if there is no conductor to actually work. Conductors are rightfully entitled to take Sunday off....it's that simple. And until that changes ( which isn't going to happen anytime soon ) then the service will be poor.
It's all just another nail in the coffin for those who used to rely on the trains. If they are not there when you need them you go elsewhere.
Many operators won't touch RRBs as the rates are generally far too low - and their drivers need breaks too!
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I can assure you that RRBs when they do operate are running very empty. Pointless waste of expenditure. So simply tell the public not to travel.....it's that simple and very effective.
Makes me ask my earlier unanswered question again.....
As someone far away from Northern land, I was looking at staying near Moston Sunday week, the line is closed anyway for engineering works but do Northern get ticket acceptance on local service buses when the traincrew situation falls to bits regularly or as extra when there's engineering work ???
Wasn't my safety culture investigation but was something I was privy to seeing the results of, in relation to several (repeat) operational incidents, specifically with guards. On the edges of the brief survey was the 'any further comments' (in relation to staff relationship with depot and ops standards management).
Ordinarily, staff tend to hold back when train operating companies conduct 'anonymous lolsurveys', but with an external body undertaking this, they didn't hold back... responses ranged from useful, revealing, appalling, to downright shocking.
It would be difficult to distinguish between those managers who are former traincrew and those who arrived from their graduate schemes. At several other operators, I've met outstanding and terrible examples from both, but at Northern I'm fairly sure many came from within the traincrew grades *but* essentially didn't really work as traincrew for very long, indeed some externals came from the airlines cabin crew, where staff - management relationships are often worse than those of a dodgy burger chain.
Tis easy to understand how Avanti's resourcing went from 57 RDW volunteers, to just 3 available drivers the day after their dopey ex-MD Mr Whittingham opened his mouth and slated them for having a day off.
It sounds a very interesting study - I have no particular view either way, for the record! But in any case, it certainly sounds as though there is quite some work to be done.
It's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to take the massive savings from not running trains and put it into paying the going rate for buses, at which point you will get them.
I think that Northern treat their inability to staff Sunday services as industrial action. There is never any RRB cover for industrial action to my knowledge. Likewise there will not be any ticket acceptance arranged. Refunds will be offered. When there are RRBs, no refunds are offered unless the passenger is delayed - the delay being calculated based on the timetable for the day.
Having said that, Central Trains back in 2009 did provide some sort of RRB cover when they were in difficulty with Sunday staffing.
I am not surprised that some operators will not work for Northern at those prices. I know when NX ran rail replacement, there was a tendering system and the cheapest operator got the job.
The coach operators who work for the TOCs seem to vary. Both my local TOCs mostly use operators from their rail operating area. CrossCountry rail replacements seem to come from all over. Cymru Coaches from Swansea is a favourite in Cambridge! Although an Arriva TOC, their vehicle duties are designed and procured by CMAC as far as I know.
As mentioned above, getting drivers in school term is much more difficult. A proportion of the drivers used on rail replacement will also drive school buses. That rules out almost all late duties. They may also drive 5 days a week so need to take weekend days as rest days - whether they want to or not.
I can assure you that RRBs when they do operate are running very empty. Pointless waste of expenditure. So simply tell the public not to travel.....it's that simple and very effective.
Fine. I'll use the car every week. In fact, I'll just carry on doing that every week indefinitely . It's much more reliable than the rail system. Is that what you want?
As someone who has tried to get RRB, the problem really isn’t the rate - the bus companies just aren’t interested in that type of work, especially stage carriage operators who would rather have their vehicles and drivers tucked up at the weekends so they can guarantee their own services on Monday morning. I have had quite a few interesting discussions with operators in my own Owning Group because I was criticised for not using them and those bus companies just didn’t want to know.
The position before COVID was that getting RRB was getting increasingly difficult as several significant private operators were starting to leave the market. This has accelerated since then, so in some areas there are less operators to go for and when you get several major blocks on at once, it can get really difficult. If you are lucky, you can get buses from miles away but then you have the driver training issues.
Very short notice hire can be very difficult at times - you flash the cash, the buses are there but no drivers are available to come out to drive them, especially if they are on the school runs. Which is why taxis have to be used.
I have always found that once you get a good operator, you stick to them like glue. With one operator, they were rubbish at billing us, so I sent one of my staff in there to sort it out - I didn’t want them to go under because they were so naff at their cash flow management!
It would be far better if we could actually operate trains.
I think that Northern treat their inability to staff Sunday services as industrial action. There is never any RRB cover for industrial action to my knowledge.
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