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Northern Ireland post-Brexit

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DerekC

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With the resignation of Edwin Poots, the DUP is descending into further chaos. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...resign-as-dup-leader-and-who-will-replace-him

Edwin Poots has resigned as leader of the Democratic Unionist party after just 21 days in the job. What has prompted the latest dramatic development in the leadership of Northern Ireland’s biggest party?

Why did Poots resign as DUP leader?​



Poots quit on Thursday night because colleagues revolted over a deal he had agreed with Sinn Féin and the British government about Irish language legislation. The deal clinched Sinn Féin’s agreement to revive the stalled Stormont executive and to install Poots’ protege Paul Givan as first minister. But DUP assembly members and Westminster MPs considered it a concession too far.

Why is the legislation so controversial?​

Unionists say they have nothing against the Irish language. Most parties, including the DUP, agreed to the long-promised legislation in a 2020 agreement called New Decade, New Approach. It would create an Irish language commissioner and an office of identity and cultural expression, among other things. Many unionists say Sinn Féin has “weaponised” the issue to undermine British identity and that there are more urgent legislative priorities. And stung by the Irish Sea border, they are in no mood to be seen as ceding more ground to nationalists. But the legislation itself is not the immediate reason Poots fell.

So what toppled him?​

Poots replaced Arlene Foster, ousted in an April putsch, on the promise of listening to party members who had felt sidelined by Foster’s circle. But he did not consult colleagues about the language deal. Worse, when they complained about it at a stormy meeting on Thursday morning he ignored them – he walked out while the MP Sammy Wilson was speaking – and nominated Givan as first minister. This rebooted the executive, with Michelle O’Neill of Sinn Féin renominated as deputy first minister, but a DUP backlash forced Poots to quit hours later.

Who will replace him?​

The favourite is Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, the Lagan Valley MP who narrowly lost to Poots in the battle to succeed Foster. He has the support of Foster’s old guard and could win over the demoralised Paisleyite Free Presbyterian wing that had backed Poots. There is speculation that the party, drained by convulsions, will crown Donaldson rather than have another divisive contest. However, other potential candidates such as Sammy Wilson may bid for the leadership.

What awaits the new DUP leader?​

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Purgatory. The party is bitterly divided on ideology, policy and personalities, prompting defections and resignations. Erstwhile supporters say its blunders led to the post-Brexit Northern Ireland protocol and the Irish Sea border. Polls suggest that in the next assembly election it will haemorrhage votes to Traditional Unionist Voice, the Ulster Unionist party and Alliance, with Sinn Féin emerging as the biggest party and claiming the post of first minister.

Can the Stormont assembly and executive continue?​

Yes, in theory, until the next assembly election slated for May 2022. Givan has lost his mentor and angered some colleagues with the manner of his elevation to first minister, but the DUP may leave him in place. Removing him would trigger another showdown with Sinn Féin over the Irish language and probably a snap election, which neither party wants.

But the DUP meltdown, which started with the coup against Foster in April, keeps leaking into the assembly and executive. So too does the loyalist marching season, which has fused with protests over the Irish Sea border.

An early election grows ever more likely. That might mop up the DUP’s internal mess but there is no guarantee Northern Ireland’s parties could then cobble together a new power-sharing government. Quite a time for a birthday: on 22 June it will be 100 years since the opening of the first Northern Ireland assembly.

What do members think the next moves are likely to be? Clearly there will be another leadership election, so will this result in even less possibility of compromise? Judging by his behaviour Boris doesn't seem to think that Northern Ireland matters very much, presumably because there aren't any Tory seats there, but there is a considerable danger that the Stormont government will collapse again very soon and the whole problem will be back on his plate with a vengeance! Ireland is a place where the Johnson approach of screw it up and move on just won't work.
 
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wireforever

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Our current PM doesn't understand the problems in Northern Ireland and never will.As it is now approaching the marching season a lot of people will be holding their breathe hoping the situation doesn't spiral out of control.I would have thought hardliners in the DUP do not want to see the Irish language pass into law in Stormont or by the UK parliament at Westminister.If Stormont collapses and new elections are called further down the line a Border Poll may result depending on the makeup of a new Stormont parliament
 

AlterEgo

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There won’t be a border poll for a generation, I’d confidently predict.
 

XAM2175

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There's a fairly forthright opinion piece on the topic today:

Brexit is the plague that will still be infecting Britain when Covid has gone. It spreads unnoticed because neither government nor opposition shows the smallest interest in finding a vaccine. The public doesn’t blame them because it is sick of hearing about the sickness. I understand why. I am sick of writing about it. ...

The crisis Brexit brought to Northern Ireland passes most people by as well. But the possible breakup of your country should not be a small matter, nor should the danger that it might bring violence with it.

Before the 2016 referendum, Arlene Foster said it was “disgraceful” of Tony Blair and John Major to warn Brexit could jeopardise the unity of the UK. Foster was then first minister of Northern Ireland and leader of the Democratic Unionist party, which enjoyed hegemonic control of the Ulster unionist vote. In the space of a little over a month this spring the DUP deposed her, then deposed her successor, Edwin Poots, and is now looking for a new leader and a coherent strategy as the consequences of Brexit destroy the party and the unionist cause.

In 2016, Kate Hoey, a nominally Labour and de facto ultra-Ulster unionist politician, was bustling round the TV studios to announce that Major and Blair’s warning of national disintegration showed their “economic illiteracy”. Last week, she was reduced to trying to explain to angry loyalists in the market town of Newtonards, County Down, how the hard Brexit she had championed had partitioned the UK and put a border in the Irish Sea. ...
 

yorksrob

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If I were the DUP, I'd be promoting the Irish language bill to demonstrate just what an inclusive and unified entity the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland itself is.
 

Flying Snail

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If I were the DUP, I'd be promoting the Irish language bill to demonstrate just what an inclusive and unified entity the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland itself is.

You have obviously never met a DUP member, they give not a fig about pretending to be open or inclusive or not openly sectarian.

The Union they wish to be part of is not the 21st century reality of a multi-cultural, secular, tolerant UK. They are still holding out for a return of the empire and being part of the ruling class therein.

There simply is no appeasing them and the scum thugs they rile up to riot on queue. They are losing power and ultimately their majority (of the population, it'll take a lot longer for electoral majority to swing away due to copious gerrymandering) and they do not like it one bit.
 

XAM2175

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You have obviously never met a DUP member, they give not a fig about pretending to be open or inclusive or not openly sectarian.

The Union they wish to be part of is not the 21st century reality of a multi-cultural, secular, tolerant UK. They are still holding out for a return of the empire and being part of the ruling class therein.
Quite - for all their strident clamour about being no less British than their compatriots across the water they still do an awful lot of moaning about having to have the same laws regarding abortion and same-sex marriage as the rest of dear Britain.

It's worth noting too that the proposed Irish language bill isn't entirely one-sided; it also includes protections for the Ulster Scots dialect.
 

yorksrob

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You have obviously never met a DUP member, they give not a fig about pretending to be open or inclusive or not openly sectarian.

The Union they wish to be part of is not the 21st century reality of a multi-cultural, secular, tolerant UK. They are still holding out for a return of the empire and being part of the ruling class therein.

There simply is no appeasing them and the scum thugs they rile up to riot on queue. They are losing power and ultimately their majority (of the population, it'll take a lot longer for electoral majority to swing away due to copious gerrymandering) and they do not like it one bit.

I was more thinking of using it as a way to take the wind out of Sinn Fein's sails, which they would presumably want.
 

AlterEgo

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I was more thinking of using it as a way to take the wind out of Sinn Fein's sails, which they would presumably want.
It’s a bright idea and exactly what they should do but I’m afraid that’s just not how the DUP think.
 

XAM2175

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There does seem to be a lack of strategic thinking.
Oh no, they have a strategy! It's to oppose everything that serves, or even appears to perhaps tangentially serve, the interests of "them 'uns". They view it as an enormous zero-sum game - any 'gain' by the nationalist side must, by their definition, result in a 'loss' by their side.

By comparison Stalin was a first-class pragmatist.
 

102 fan

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You have obviously never met a DUP member, they give not a fig about pretending to be open or inclusive or not openly sectarian.

The Union they wish to be part of is not the 21st century reality of a multi-cultural, secular, tolerant UK. They are still holding out for a return of the empire and being part of the ruling class therein.

There simply is no appeasing them and the scum thugs they rile up to riot on queue. They are losing power and ultimately their majority (of the population, it'll take a lot longer for electoral majority to swing away due to copious gerrymandering) and they do not like it one bit.


I feel that to balance things I shoud mention that some Senn Fein members are a equally non open, exclusive and sectarian. Don't paint the picture that Unionism is the ONLY problem in N Ireland.

We have extremely long waiting lists for surgery here, but it seems an Irish language act is far more important.

Personally I'd remove ALL the regional assemblies, and put the money saved on their wages into the NHS. 650 MP's in Westminster is more than enough, without more with their snouts in the trough wasting money on vanity projects.
 

XAM2175

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We have extremely long waiting lists for surgery here, but it seems an Irish language act is far more important.
Legal protections for both Irish and Ulster Scots languages and culture were part of the New Decade, New Approach compromise that restored the NI Executive in January last year, and that was agreed in consultation between between the UK and Irish Governments as well as the five major NI political parties. Should it not be fulfilled to the fullest extent possible?

I notice, incidentally, that it also lists as number of priorities and commitments relating to healthcare and waiting times - though Covid will have interfered with a lot of that.
 

102 fan

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Legal protections for both Irish and Ulster Scots languages and culture were part of the New Decade, New Approach compromise that restored the NI Executive in January last year, and that was agreed in consultation between between the UK and Irish Governments as well as the five major NI political parties. Should it not be fulfilled to the fullest extent possible?

I notice, incidentally, that it also lists as number of priorities and commitments relating to healthcare and waiting times - though Covid will have interfered with a lot of that.


No, not while there's a greater medical emergency. Get the waiting lists down, then worry about pandering to both side's politically motivated languages.

You're not seriously saying we should put languages that are NOBODY'S first language above the current medical problems?
 

AlterEgo

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No, not while there's a greater medical emergency. Get the waiting lists down, then worry about pandering to both side's politically motivated languages.

You're not seriously saying we should put languages that are NOBODY'S first language above the current medical problems?
Is it not possible to run a health service and pass a language act? I don't see how one issue interfaces with the other in practical terms.
 

birchesgreen

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Apparently they arn't capable to doing more than one thing in NI?

I suspect though if waiting lists were reduced to zero there would be another excuse.
 

Ediswan

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Is it not possible to run a health service and pass a language act? I don't see how one issue interfaces with the other in practical terms.
In most places it would be possible. This is NI. They have their own way of doing things.

(Edited as was ambiguous.)
 

Senex

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Like it or not, there are moves worldwide to protect and cherish languages spoken by even very tiny groups of people. And we've already gone down the legally protectionist road in parts of the United Kingdom with respect to the status of Welsh and Scots Gaelic, with the Irish giving protection to irish Gaelic. I'm not sure about Cornish yet, nor about the Scots language (i.e. the language that developed from the Anglian dialect of Old English as it developed from let's say about 1100 onwards in Scotland). But given that the principle of protection is now well established in our own islands, how can the same not be done in Northern Ireland, certainly for Irish Gaelic and also for the Irish development of Scots? (Or is it all an other example of that Northern irish special pleading that they are wonderful unionists until it comes to accepting the sorts of legislation that apply in other parts of the union, like abortion legislation etc, at which point they promptly become even more special than they Scots or Welsh have ever dared to be?)
 

102 fan

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Is it not possible to run a health service and pass a language act? I don't see how one issue interfaces with the other in practical terms.


If it was only passing an act, yes. But it will cost money, money I'd rather put into heath. Unless you'd like more of your money pumped into NI?
 
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