Northern Hub?

[Morgsie]

I know the Northern Hub project is a set of improvements in the North, mainly the Manchester area including the Ordsall Curve. I would like to know more about this project.

What else is proposed?
How much will it cost?
Timeframe?

 

[Railguy220]

There is lots of information on the website for the Northern Hub.

http://www.northernhub.co.uk/

 

[northwichcat]

The cost for the whole scheme including developments in Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Blackpool, Leeds, Sheffield, York and other places is £500m. That's a small amount in reality as the redevelopment of Kings Cross station alone costed around £500m.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Includes some passing loops on the hope valley line. Not sure if the redoubling or dore station is included or not.

 

[kermit]

Wow!!

I just looked at the Northern Hub website. I don't think I've ever seen such a lack of information spread so thinly over such a large number of webpages. I found an animation that seemed to suggest folk would be happy to travel from Newcastle to Liverpool on some uncomfortable diesel variant of a boghopper railbus. If this is the future, we're stuffed!

 

[GNERman]

Actually this has popped up at a nice time...

What route are the Cleethorpes services going to take?

 

[Eagle]

Wow!!

I just looked at the Northern Hub website. I don't think I've ever seen such a lack of information spread so thinly over such a large number of webpages. I found an animation that seemed to suggest folk would be happy to travel from Newcastle to Liverpool on some uncomfortable diesel variant of a boghopper railbus. If this is the future, we're stuffed!

That site is ridiculously underinformative. For instance the only mention of TPN electrification, which has become a key part of the project, is a single recent news article.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Actually this has popped up at a nice time...

What route are the Cleethorpes services going to take?

I had a feeling they would transfer it to liverpool via warrington, to replace the scarbrough service which will go via chat moss.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are those who think that not all the projects in the Northern Hub will proceed unless there is a sound financial case to be made for them. Recent statements from Government sources suggest detailed financial cost investigations will be applied.

 

[GNERman]

I had a feeling they would transfer it to liverpool via warrington, to replace the scarbrough service which will go via chat moss.

I mean, is it going via Victoria or just Piccadilly?

 

[Eagle]

There are those who think that not all the projects in the Northern Hub will proceed unless there is a sound financial case to be made for them. Recent statements from Government sources suggest detailed financial cost investigations will be applied.

Of course a lot of the individual schemes of the overall project don't make sense on their own (for instance TPN electrification doesn't work without Chat Moss electrification), so there'll probably be some kind of domino effect between all the schemes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I mean, is it going via Victoria or just Piccadilly?

Still piccadilly, basically follow the current liverpool TPE service from piccadilly. After following its current route to piccadilly from cleethorpes.

 

[John55]

For the OP there is far more technical information in the two reports which can be read on this page of the Network Rail website.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/6474.aspx

 

[WatcherZero]

Of course a lot of the individual schemes of the overall project don't make sense on their own (for instance TPN electrification doesn't work without Chat Moss electrification), so there'll probably be some kind of domino effect between all the schemes.

Electrifications and Northern Hub are completley seperate projects, while the two teams talk to each other they are not working together or part of the same proposals and costings. Northern Hub is Network Rail led, electrifications are Dft/Treasury led. A lot of staff didnt even know the Government was going to announce TPE electrification in the Autumn Statement, it came from them desperate to try and do something that could be seen as stimulating the economy.

When Northern Hub was being studied they thought the only North West electrification would be Liverpool-Manchester.

 

[Nym]

I had a feeling they would transfer it to liverpool via warrington, to replace the scarbrough service which will go via chat moss.

I'm thinking that as well, if it retains two semi fast services on the CLC, sending the Cleethorpes service in the path of the current Liverpool TPE fits the timings very nicely thank you very much.

It would also provide a standard half hourly pattern from Stockport onto Liverpool, would be nice. Would also keep a decent quality of rolling stock on the CLC and create capacity by removing long distance traffic from the busyer service on the route, with the other service shortly to become 4 carriages on all diagrams.

Would then provide. From Liverpool Lime Street...

2tph Slow CLC to MCO / Piccadilly
1tph Semi Fast CLC to Norwich via Manchester Piccadilly
1tph Semi Fast CLC to Cleethorpes via Manchester Piccadilly (Putting Doncaster back on the Liverpool Map)

2tph Slow to Stalybridge via Chat Moss and Manchester Victoria
1tph to ?Newcastle via Chat Moss, Victoria, Diggle, Leeds, York
1tph to ?Hull via Chat Moss, Victoria, Diggle, Leeds, Selby

Then additionally on the route, 2tph Wigan via Paitcroft from Victoria, 2tph Wigan via St Helens from Liverpool etc. And Scottish services...

 

[Morgsie]

I looked at the Northern Hub website and the Network Rail section, they don't mention the specifics only the benefits.

 

[John55]

I looked at the Northern Hub website and the Network Rail section, they don't mention the specifics only the benefits.

Have you read the technical report which lists all the interventions (i.e. 4 tracking. new junctions and resignalling) for each option of the plans on the page I linked to?

 

[Philip]

Why are they focusing on the Chat Moss line in this scheme? Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria to Preston via Bolton is one of the busiest routes in the country never mind the north which could do with more services than the current 8tph and yet Scottish TPE services and Wigan locals are being diverted away from this route!?

Bolton had a direct service to Glasgow/Edinburgh and to Birmingham/South Coast long before TPE took over the running of it. Wigan already has an existing direct service to these destinations so why are they putting the TPE that way? Will this mean TPE Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere fasts will also be diverted through Chat Moss and Wigan?

To me the more logical option would have been to electrify Manchester to Preston via Bolton first and also upgrade the line speed to at least 90, with perhaps all fast trains calling at Bolton and Chorley only (maybe some peak time trains stopping at Salford Crescent as well).

 

[Nym]

Because that is the quickest route to electrify?

 

[Viscount702]

Electrifications and Northern Hub are completley seperate projects, while the two teams talk to each other they are not working together or part of the same proposals and costings. Northern Hub is Network Rail led, electrifications are Dft/Treasury led. A lot of staff didnt even know the Government was going to announce TPE electrification in the Autumn Statement, it came from them desperate to try and do something that could be seen as stimulating the economy.

When Northern Hub was being studied they thought the only North West electrification would be Liverpool-Manchester.

It is because of the above that I have concerns as to how much if any of the Hub will now be funded.

The baseline for the Hub and many of the assumptions are on the basis that only Liverpool-Manchester would be electrified.The addition of the remainder of the triangle but more particularly TPE electrification has in my view put a spanner in the works. The chord which is part of the Hub has been funded but some of the things proposed by the Hub may now for one reason or another be less important or not necessary at all. Nonetheless the principle behind the Hub is good and it should be implemented in full to the extent that it is now needed to achieve the aims of the Hub.

 

[tbtc]

Why are they focusing on the Chat Moss line in this scheme? Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria to Preston via Bolton is one of the busiest routes in the country never mind the north which could do with more services than the current 8tph and yet Scottish TPE services and Wigan locals are being diverted away from this route!?

They can do Chat Moss a lot faster, which means that they can divert the Scottish services via Wigan which will free up paths/ capacity through Bolton for more local passengers.

Then, once that is done they can start electrifying the line through Bolton.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Recent statements from Government sources suggest detailed financial cost investigations will be applied.

That doesn't mean the project won't go ahead as a whole. The prophets of doom were saying that Thameslink and Crossrail would be seriously cut back, just under two years ago, but it never happened.

Should any Government just spend our money without doing any checks first?

 

[Stats]

That doesn't mean the project won't go ahead as a whole. The prophets of doom were saying that Thameslink and Crossrail would be seriously cut back, just under two years ago, but it never happened.

Should any Government just spend our money without doing any checks first?

Indeed, but when the DfT is already suggesting possible changes to the scheme to the Transport Select Committee it doesn't look hopeful.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmtran/writev/aes/aes01.htm
Trans Pennine electrification and the Northern Hub

The Northern Hub has been developed from a base of today's diesel-operated network and takes account of the slower acceleration and line speeds of older suburban diesel trains.

Electrification of the North West Triangle between Manchester, Leeds and Preston, and now of the north Trans Pennine route between Manchester, Leeds and York, has changed the way the railway in the north will operate. Faster electric suburban trains are likely to replace the older diesel trains and changes to service routes and calling patterns may offer more efficient alignment of train capacity against demand. This has changed the base assumption of the Northern Hub.

For example, a local diesel train from Liverpool to Manchester Victoria would be caught up by a faster diesel Trans Pennine train by Manchester Victoria and therefore needs overtaking at Victoria if the trans Pennine train is not to be delayed. However if both these services are electric - as is expected to be the case later this decade - then the electric local train can reach Stalybridge before it is caught up by the trans Pennine train. Thus the investment in overtaking facilities for diesel trains at Victoria needs to be replaced by investment in reversing sidings at Stalybridge for electric trains.

The Northern Hub schemes need to be reviewed to see if they are still the best solutions against the background of electric trains replacing diesels on the core routes. As well as having good acceleration and high line speeds, the electric trains are likely to have greater passenger capacity and, with modern sliding doors, may require less time at stations than the older diesel trains during the peak hours. The redeployment of the faster Trans Pennine diesels also has to be considered as this too will change the services that can be provided.

The train operating companies have started to consider with Network Rail the range of opportunities for service improvements this wide-ranging electrification plan brings. We expect the rail industry to work with stakeholders to agree the likely service changes that will result and then review these against forecast demand to validate Northern Hub projects. This could change both the mix of schemes and the scheme priorities within the package of schemes that constitute the Northern Hub programme.

We have committed to consider the Northern Hub schemes again as part of the Government's High Level Output Specification (HLOS) for rail investment in Control Period 5 (2014/15 to 2018/19). This will be published by July 2012 and will take account of the revised advice on the Northern Hub.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, but when the DfT is already suggesting possible changes to the scheme to the Transport Select Committee it doesn't look hopeful.

It would be quite ridiculous to expect there to be no changes to the plans if electrification, and therefore rolling stock, policy changed completely, which it just has.

Just look at all the proposals in this forum for changes to service patterns following north TPE wiring - why wouldn't the DfT follow suit?

 

[northwichcat]

Actually this has popped up at a nice time...

What route are the Cleethorpes services going to take?

I had a feeling they would transfer it to liverpool via warrington, to replace the scarbrough service which will go via chat moss.

The plans for Sheffield-Manchester include numerous options with no preferred option stated.

If we assume the options with the most changes to the current services go ahead then we'll have:
1. Liverpool to Norwich re-routed via Victoria and Marple and avoiding Sheffield.
2. Leeds to Sheffield to Nottingham becomes half-hourly.
3. Full hourly stopper service for Sheffield-Manchester.
4. Two TPE/fast portion working services from Sheffield per hour to Manchester and beyond one departure for Liverpool and Preston, another departure for Chester and Manchester Airport. No indication of where the services would split - may be possible at Piccadilly if platforms 15 and 16 open.

Remember that isn't what will happen, but what could happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

Electrifications and Northern Hub are completley seperate projects, while the two teams talk to each other they are not working together or part of the same proposals and costings. Northern Hub is Network Rail led, electrifications are Dft/Treasury led.

I think you may be exaggerating the difficulties. DfT/Treasury won't be running an independent electrification team - so it isn't as though they are designing a system outside of NR.

In any case, NR's CP5 proposed enhancement list for the next HLOS already included north TPE electrifcation with costings - at the time of the DfT's announcement it was already a firm NR proposal - so they shouldn't have been completely caught out. They may have been surprised by the timing though...

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah but if you read the submission it is proposed as part of a nationwide rolling electrification program, not one scheme in isolation which the Treasury funded it as and only outline work had been done (for example not studied any of the major stations, rolling stock, services, etc..).

 

[Viscount702]

Paragraph 4.6 of a TfGMC report as set out below suggests that electrification of NTP means they don't have to re open the Standedge tunnels. Is this your reading of the paragraph.

"4.6 Network Rail have concluded that the improvements in services between
Leeds and Manchester can be achieved through the electrification, and
without the additional passing loops that had been part of the original
Northern Hub plans. The latest proposals between Manchester and Leeds
allow for up to 6 fast trains per hour, and two services calling at each of
the local stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield. Service patterns
will be defined during the re-franchising processes."

More reading here:http://www.transportforgreatermanch...07_budget_2012_and_other_recent_announcements

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That doesn't mean the project won't go ahead as a whole. The prophets of doom were saying that Thameslink and Crossrail would be seriously cut back, just under two years ago, but it never happened.....Should any Government just spend our money without doing any checks first?

I was not querying the point that your final sentence implies. However, you do make mention of both Thameslink and Crossrail, both of which are in a region where railway expansion is always (or so it seems) looked upon more favourably than in the geographical area in which the proposals of the Northern Hub are situated.

 

[tbtc]

I was not querying the point that your final sentence implies. However, you do make mention of both Thameslink and Crossrail, both of which are in a region where railway expansion is always (or so it seems) looked upon more favourably than in the geographical area in which the proposals of the Northern Hub are situated.

The "Grass Is Always Greener Down South" argument does appear attractive, Paul, but you have to remember that the scheme opening later this decade was initially known as Thameslink 2000 as that was when it was expected to be completed.

Similarly Crossrail was a long time in coming (first proposed in the 1940s AFAICS), so the fact that it is now being built doesn't hide the fact that it has been postponed more times than many schemes.

Both the north and south have had projects put on hold for some time. However this decade will see significant investment on infrastructure in northern England (mainly in and around Manchester, but some improvements elsewhere too).