Northern Future fleet updates

[lumitumey12345]

Phase 2, AIUA.

Will they have any future after Northern?

 

[D365]

Will they have any future after Northern?

That would be a question to ask in the Speculative Discussions subforum.

 

[Snow1964]

Dft have updated their procurement pipeline spreadsheet.

Not sure if it has been changed, but Northerns 2 entries now shows as :

Replacement of Northern Trains Limiteds (NTLs) oldest rolling stock of 15X vehicles over the coming years with options to replace northerns remaining fleet in a framework agreement over 8 years

The procurement establishes a framework agreement with an 8 year term and this procurement relates to the Phase One requirements which are:
Lot 1: - EMU required for passenger service 2029-30 with an estimated requirement of 12 x 3-vehicle units.
Lot 2: - MMU required for passenger service 2030-31 with an estimated requirement of 48 x 3-vehicle units and 64 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 3: - BEMU required for passenger service 2032 with an estimated initial requirement of 8 x 4-vehicle units.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/692e9985b3b9afff34e96339/dft-future-commercial-contracts-dft-partners.csv

 

[Spartacus]

Dft have updated their procurement pipeline spreadsheet.

Not sure if it has been changed, but Northerns 2 entries now shows as :

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/692e9985b3b9afff34e96339/dft-future-commercial-contracts-dft-partners.csv

Good that there's no 2 cars showing on there.

 

[treasury brain]

8 BEMU's seems quite specific, any ideas where these will be deployed? Windermere, Blackpool S, Southport or Buxton at a stretch?

 

[jonnyfan]

8 BEMU's seems quite specific, any ideas where these will be deployed? Windermere, Blackpool S, Southport or Buxton at a stretch?

From an internal Northern document I've seen, they are to be used on the Buxton line.

 

[Killingworth]

From an internal Northern document I've seen, they are to be used on the Buxton line.

That was on a slide shown at the Stakeholder Conference in Liverpool on 17th November. Aim to be in service mid-late 2032.

From same slide, first EMU into service on TRU late 2030, first MMU into service in North West late 2031.

We all know circumstances can, and probably will, change but it's looking more specific as the months progress.

 

[YorkshireBear]

My concern is that with those entry into service dates, they need to be placing orders soon. Especially for the MMU and BEMUs. The 810s were over 6 years from order to entry into service.....

 

[D365]

My concern is that with those entry into service dates, they need to be placing orders soon. Especially for the MMU and BEMUs. The 810s were over 6 years from order to entry into service.....

As per the post above, the EMUs are first.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As per the post above, the EMUs are first.

Yes but the MMUs are not long after 2030-31 is 4-6 years away. Less than the 6 years + from order to introduction on the 810s and the order is still many months if not over a year from being placed.

 

[rattyben]

That was on a slide shown at the Stakeholder Conference in Liverpool on 17th November. Aim to be in service mid-late 2032.

From same slide, first EMU into service on TRU late 2030, first MMU into service in North West late 2031.

We all know circumstances can, and probably will, change but it's looking more specific as the months progress.

It’ll be interesting to see what gets internally cascaded as these come into service.

 

[Gazbe]

That would be a question to ask in the Speculative Discussions subforum.

Northern need to replace the 323’s due to them not being able to be converted to ERTMS when it is introduced on the WCML.
I would assume this will also preclude their use elsewhere as ERTMS gets rolled out.

 

[Ribbleman]

Yes but the MMUs are not long after 2030-31 is 4-6 years away. Less than the 6 years + from order to introduction on the 810s and the order is still many months if not over a year from being placed.

To the best of my recollection manufacturers’ bids will be received before the end of February. Evaluation will follow with the aim of placing orders in summer next year, though no doubt subject to the DfT not delaying matters.

 

[Killingworth]

To the best of my recollection manufacturers’ bids will be received before the end of February. Evaluation will follow with the aim of placing orders in early summer next year.

Slide shown at recent Stakeholder event in Liverpool, apologies for quality

 

[xotGD]

The fact that there are two different Finak Investment Decision dates and that there is "(s)" on the end of "build programme(s)" suggests that this could be split between two manufacturers, one for EMUs, a second for the rest.

It also looks like I will have retired before the 333s!

 

[GoneSouth]

The fact that there are two different Finak Investment Decision dates and that there is "(s)" on the end of "build programme(s)" suggests that this could be split between two manufacturers, one for EMUs, a second for the rest.

It also looks like I will have retired before the 333s!

Congratulations, you won’t have to suffer what replaced them!

 

[Sf9k]

Will the North East get more 158s or the new MMUs?

 

[D365]

Will the North East get more 158s or the new MMUs?

Class 158 won’t be replaced under the ongoing ’Phase 1’ procurement exercise.

 

[rattyben]

Will the North East get more 158s or the new MMUs?

They have said new trains would arrive in the North East by 2030/31.

That’s an email I got back from them with regards this question in May.

 

[Mat17]

So class 150s will soldier on until 2032-33?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So class 150s will soldier on until 2032-33?

Sounds like there's no other choice.

 

[xotGD]

Sounds like there's no other choice.

Unless some 156s and/or 158s can be cascaded from elsewhere to bin them earlier.

 

[3RDGEN]

So class 150s will soldier on until 2032-33?

The MMU's due for 2030/31 are to replace the 150/155/156 fleets so it will depend upon their delivery and which unit's Northern replaces first, they haven't published full details of their cascade plans. The EMU's due in 2030 will replace the 150's from the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper and the 195's from the Leeds - York stopper allowing a small fleet cascade, assuming those parts of TRU are completed on time.

 

[thealexweb]

Sounds like there's no other choice.

There are other options if the funding is there. TFW 158s start going off lease next year. They could replace the 150s in the worst condition to buy more time.

 

[Mat17]

The MMU's due for 2030/31 are to replace the 150/155/156 fleets so it will depend upon their delivery and which unit's Northern replaces first, they haven't published full details of their cascade plans. The EMU's due in 2030 will replace the 150's from the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper and the 195's from the Leeds - York stopper allowing a small fleet cascade, assuming those parts of TRU are completed on time.

I was thinking more Penistone line and South Yorkshire stopping services, always back of the queue.

 

[778]

Are there any plans to replace the 170s?

 

[3RDGEN]

Are there any plans to replace the 170s?

They would be replaced in Phase 3 of the Northern new fleet plan if it happens so years away, no need to replace the pride of the Northern fleet for years yet.

 

[BurtonM]

It’ll be interesting to see what gets internally cascaded as these come into service.

I don't suspect there'll be a cascade, but a direct replacement. It'd be a good cause to scrap some of the worse condition 156s, or some 150s.
It would be nice if the displaced DMUs could be used to strengthen other services but I don't see it happening, especially on 150/1s with no corridor connections.

~~

It still baffles me that it's only now that replacing the 150s is being considered, I don't get why plans weren't in motion as soon as the Pacer withdrawals were complete. Eight more years is too long.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There are other options if the funding is there. TFW 158s start going off lease next year. They could replace the 150s in the worst condition to buy more time.

But only some of them, there just aren't enough to replace them all.

I don't suspect there'll be a cascade, but a direct replacement.

There will absolutely be cascades, the 195s need to make their way to the entirely diesel routes (e.g. Cumbrian Coast, Whitby).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will absolutely be cascades, the 195s need to make their way to the entirely diesel routes (e.g. Cumbrian Coast, Whitby).

Indeed. That was a big part of the point of ordering 2-car 195s - for them to be cascaded to the low demand diesel routes to replace 150s and 156s. Otherwise ordering short units would have made no sense because it's paying for extra cabs that spend most of their time buried in 4 car formations.