Northern Future fleet updates

[3RDGEN]

Can the units last that long? We hear on this forum that the 150's are "falling to bits". Is this members being overdramatic and actually they are perfectly capable of seeing another 6-8 years service- depending on when any new trains are ready. The 155s and 156s are also pretty old.

There seems to be a real contradiction on the forum, either the Sprinters, especially 150s are end of life meaning they have little chance of survival till 2031 or not. I struggle to know what comments I should take seriously and which posts are "for effect". Or does a massive overhaul answer all the problems?

The current Northern plan is 2031 for a start of replacing the 150/155/156 fleets which given their size will take some time so the units have no option but to last into the early 2030's. The 150's, both Northern and GWR ones, are currently on an overhaul program which is costing big money and time due to corrosion. The corrosion issue is a reason why the TfW 150/2's are going to scrap as they become due overhaul, with parts recovered from them to support the other 150 fleets going then Northern and GWR should be OK.

If Northern get the TfW 158's then they could start a replacement of the 150/155/156 fleets earlier but on a very small scale so early 2030's it is for most of the units.

 

[skyhigh]

The 150s used on the Bradford to Huddersfield’s and Halifax to Hull’s are in a really bad way.

I’m sure they are safety compliant but the rust and holes on the sides of some of them are showing just how old and worn out these units are.

Hmm, not sure they're that bad.

The 150s have all had solebar scanning to ensure they are safe to run.

There has been a "low cost/downtime" modification approved to deal with the corrosion issue until the units are due for withdrawal.

As to the parts fitted - again, obsolete parts have been replaced with new types. Improvements are still being made to the fleet. All 150s now have WSP, and as of this Autumn have an auto sanding system.

The units are showing their age but they're nowhere near as bad as the 14x were before they were withdrawn.

 

[Transilien]

In any case DMUs are more complex than EMUs and the engine tends to shake them to bits. Hamburg's S-Bahn was still operating 1937 EMUs in 1999 (Class/Baureihe 471/871) and they were fine if somewhat dated having their original wooden bench interiors.

In my opinion, the Class 317s, 319s and 321s all had plenty more life in them when they were withdrawn. They could have got heavy 'Retnus' style refurbishments. The non-express Sprinters should have been the first to be withdrawn.

 

[D365]

In my opinion, the Class 317s, 319s and 321s all had plenty more life in them when they were withdrawn. They could have got heavy 'Retnus' style refurbishments. The non-express Sprinters should have been the first to be withdrawn.

Agree to disagree. But either way - not at all relevant to the ongoing discussion as they were withdrawn from Northern traffic several years ago.

 

[GoneSouth]

Hmm, not sure they're that bad.

The 150s have all had solebar scanning to ensure they are safe to run.

There has been a "low cost/downtime" modification approved to deal with the corrosion issue until the units are due for withdrawal.

As to the parts fitted - again, obsolete parts have been replaced with new types. Improvements are still being made to the fleet. All 150s now have WSP, and as of this Autumn have an auto sanding system.

The units are showing their age but they're nowhere near as bad as the 14x were before they were withdrawn.

But undeniably horrid to travel on for any more than 5 minutes. Cramped 3 +2 seating ear bleeding from the volume of the engines and snow blindness from the lighting. That’s before I mention the heating and badly fitting windows. Time for them to go.

In my opinion, the Class 317s, 319s and 321s all had plenty more life in them when they were withdrawn. They could have got heavy 'Retnus' style refurbishments. The non-express Sprinters should have been the first to be withdrawn.

Not sure that would have worked, plenty of EMUs to replace the 3xx units but the sprinters are all diesel and they couldn’t go without replacements being available given the shortage of diesel stock.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hmm, not sure they're that bad.

The 150s have all had solebar scanning to ensure they are safe to run.

There has been a "low cost/downtime" modification approved to deal with the corrosion issue until the units are due for withdrawal.

As to the parts fitted - again, obsolete parts have been replaced with new types. Improvements are still being made to the fleet. All 150s now have WSP, and as of this Autumn have an auto sanding system.

The units are showing their age but they're nowhere near as bad as the 14x were before they were withdrawn.

Good to hear although there was a lot more negativity around the TfW 150s which all went to scrap as deemed not fit for releasing

 

[Bletchleyite]

But undeniably horrid to travel on for any more than 5 minutes. Cramped 3 +2 seating ear bleeding from the volume of the engines and snow blindness from the lighting. That’s before I mention the heating and badly fitting windows. Time for them to go.

It's a pity the TfW examples are in very poor condition, as these only have one of those three issues. The seating is comfortable 2+2 and the lighting OK.

 

[tfw756rider]

GWR managed to almost polish the proverbial turd when they refurbed their 150s. They’re I think all 2 x 2 seating with some tables. They couldn’t sadly do anything about the painfully loud engine noise though!

Most, not all I think (unless the couple? of ex-Northern examples have since left).

The 2+2 seating with tables layout was done by Wales & West around 2000 (before they became Wales & Borders and Wessex Trains, the latter's operations of which were acquired by First Great Western, now of course Great Western Railway), and I think other National Express Group / Prism Rail operators of the time, which is why the Transport for Wales 150s have (going into had of course) the same layout (all of them, thanks to Arriva Trains Wales matching the layout in the examples they had acquired from operators of other ownership that therefore didn't have it.)

From what I understand, the Department for Transport disallowed Northern to have their 150s converted because it would've "reduced capacity".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

I suspect that the 172s alone wouldn’t have been enough to replace the Pacers. A number of Pacer units were put into storage as a result of the Oldham loop conversion to Metrolink. But were pressed back into service a few years later, initially with GWR and then Northern again.

Exactly, thanks.

 

[skyhigh]

(unless the couple? of ex-Northern examples have since left).

The Northern pair went back home ages ago. (Misread!!)

From what I understand, the Department for Transport disallowed Northern to have their 150s converted because it would've "reduced capacity".

Reduced seating capacity, in terms of figures on paper.

 

[D365]

The Northern pair went back home ages ago.

GWR still has ex-Northern 150207

 

[skyhigh]

GWR still has ex-Northern 150207

Sorry, I somehow misread TFW from the poster's user name in place of GWR in the post

 

[tfw756rider]

Reduced seating capacity, in terms of figures on paper.

Yep.

GWR still has ex-Northern 150207

Thanks, and not another as well, or...? Of course, London Northwestern Railway's 3 150s are also 3+2 seated, being ex-Northern examples, albeit those ones that were re-seated to Chapmans but still in 3+2.

Sorry, I somehow misread TFW from the poster's user name in place of GWR in the post

Sorry for the confusion! My local operator is Transport for Wales, but I travel out-of-area and have used many others, including Northern, Great Western Railway, West Midlands Trains, Avanti West Coast, Chiltern Railways, CrossCountry, East Midlands Railway, Elizabeth line, Grand Central, Greater Anglia, Island Line, London North Eastern Railway, Merseyrail, Thameslink and TransPennine Express.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Most, not all I think (unless the couple? of ex-Northern examples have since left).

The 2+2 seating with tables layout was done by Wales & West around 2000 (before they became Wales & Borders and Wessex Trains, the latter's operations of which were acquired by First Great Western, now of course Great Western Railway), and I think other National Express Group / Prism Rail operators of the time, which is why the Transport for Wales 150s have (going into had of course) the same layout (all of them, thanks to Arriva Trains Wales matching the layout in the examples they had acquired from operators of other ownership that therefore didn't have it.

From what I understand, the Department for Transport disallowed Northern to have their 150s converted because it would've "reduced capacity".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==


Exactly, thanks.

I have a feeling the Prism Wales and West didn't really do anything much to stock in or out bar some 158s getting a new livery and new seat covers Once it became Wessex after Nat Ex bought Prism in 2000 perhaps then.

 

[tfw756rider]

I have a feeling the Prism Wales and West didn't really do anything much to stock in or out bar some 158s getting a new livery and new seat covers Once it became Wessex after Nat Ex bought Prism in 2000 perhaps then.

Thanks, it was so long ago so not too surprising if I was a bit off.

 

[yorkie]

Any posts of a speculative nature on this topic can be posted at:

Northern Future fleet speculation

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-future-fleet.291177/page-5 The main thing that confuses me about this order is why they aren't going more aggressively in on batteries. If they can kick the infrastructure can down the road by keeping the 158s and 170s in...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bantamzen]

Can the units last that long? We hear on this forum that the 150's are "falling to bits". Is this members being overdramatic and actually they are perfectly capable of seeing another 6-8 years service- depending on when any new trains are ready. The 155s and 156s are also pretty old.

There seems to be a real contradiction on the forum, either the Sprinters, especially 150s are end of life meaning they have little chance of survival till 2031 or not. I struggle to know what comments I should take seriously and which posts are "for effect". Or does a massive overhaul answer all the problems?

I've been wondering this myself. My regular commute along the Mid Cheshire is exclusively 150/156s, and some seem in a pretty poor state. It's not unusual for cancellations & delays on the route due to faults, and if there's another 6 or more years to go things are only going to get worse, especially if there's a few harsh winters along the way.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Will the class 333's be included in the replacements?

 

[D365]

Will the class 333's be included in the replacements?

None of the EMUs (769s excepted) will be replaced in the ongoing Phase 1.

 

[Snow1964]

I've been wondering this myself. My regular commute along the Mid Cheshire is exclusively 150/156s, and some seem in a pretty poor state. It's not unusual for cancellations & delays on the route due to faults, and if there's another 6 or more years to go things are only going to get worse, especially if there's a few harsh winters along the way.

I do wonder if the poor condition of some of the 15x fleet is the reason for the extra row on DfT procurement spreadsheet. And it basically is going to be an interim fleet of hand me downs.

Replacement of Northern Trains Limited’s (NTL’s) oldest rolling stock of 15X vehicles over the coming years with options to replace northerns remaining fleet in a framework agreement over 8 years

This extra row in the DfT sheet even has earlier dates than the row with the 3 lots and defined quantities. Has a very exact value too which suggests it is negotiated in principle (even if not yet announced).

The alternative is a follow on order of something recently built which could be relatively quickly delivered could be an option. Maybe one of the leasing companies is seeing the big gap in trains needed and has provisionally agreed to speculatively order a fleet knowing there are potentially multiple places it could be used in 10, 20, 30 years time. Not going to speculate how many of from who in this thread, (although more 755 or 756 type seems obvious choice)

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

 

[Bantamzen]

I do wonder if the poor condition of some of the 15x fleet is the reason for the extra row on DfT procurement spreadsheet. And it basically is going to be an interim fleet of hand me downs.

This extra row in the DfT sheet even has earlier dates than the row with the 3 lots and defined quantities. Has a very exact value too which suggests it is negotiated in principle (even if not yet announced).

The alternative is a follow on order of something recently built which could be relatively quickly delivered could be an option. Maybe one of the leasing companies is seeing the big gap in trains needed and has provisionally agreed to speculatively order a fleet knowing there are potentially multiple places it could be used in 10, 20, 30 years time. Not going to speculate how many of from who in this thread, (although more 755 or 756 type seems obvious choice)

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

You could be right, replacing some of the worst performing 15x might be an option if there is stock elsewhere on the network that will become available prior to the new orders starting to come on line from 2031. I presume some could possibly come from TfW, are there other DMUs elsewhere that could also be transferred in that period?

 

[Snow1964]

You could be right, replacing some of the worst performing 15x might be an option if there is stock elsewhere on the network that will become available prior to the new orders starting to come on line from 2031. I presume some could possibly come from TfW, are there other DMUs elsewhere that could also be transferred in that period?

Through to year 2031 number of used diesel trains come free, the 180s with Grand Central, and some 222s with East Midlands, and still some spare voyagers. Obviously these are not suitable for direct replacement of a 2car 150 or 156.

However if look at bigger picture (nationally) and start considering cascades of stock where these quasi-intercity style trains could be used (even something random like Cardiff-Portsmouth, or Cardiff-Nottingham), then could free up few dozen DMUs. But this is not the thread for speculation, just discussing the principle of interpreting what DfT means on its procurement.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

The Class 333s

Will the class 333's be included in the replacements?

The class 333s will be going in Phase 2 along with the class 323s.

 

[GoneSouth]

The Class 333s


The class 333s will be going in Phase 2 along with the class 323s.

I still think of the 333s as new trains but reading this it struck me that they’re approaching 25 years old now. They were the best trains in Yorkshire for a long time.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I still think of the 333s as new trains but reading this it struck me that they’re approaching 25 years old now. They were the best trains in Yorkshire for a long time.

Still are! Excellent units for the crew.

 

[XC victim]

I still think of the 333s as new trains but reading this it struck me that they’re approaching 25 years old now. They were the best trains in Yorkshire for a long time.

Despite being 25 years old they still seem very modern, and even though they have 3+2 seating they seem really spacious inside. They cope really well with the demands of Aire valley and Wharfedale lines. I much prefer them to the class 331s (especially as these are now 3 car units on these lines)

I will be very sad to see them go (obviously that is a few years away yet), I am sure whatever replaces them will be a real decline in comfort.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Despite being 25 years old they still seem very modern, and even though they have 3+2 seating they seem really spacious inside. They cope really well with the demands of Aire valley and Wharfedale lines. I much prefer them to the class 331s (especially as these are now 3 car units on these lines)

I will be very sad to see them go (obviously that is a few years away yet), I am sure whatever replaces them will be a real decline in comfort.

I’ve grown quite fond of the Class 323s since they’ve started working on the Blackpool services, prefer them to a 319 (now 769) due to the speed difference, and I will miss them, unless another TOC takes them as they still run smoothly, as the 323s could see another few years on the railway after northern gets their new trains.

 

[ic31420]

I’ve grown quite fond of the Class 323s since they’ve started working on the Blackpool services, prefer them to a 319 (now 769) due to the speed difference, and I will miss them, unless another TOC takes them as they still run smoothly, as the 323s could see another few years on the railway after northern gets their new trains.

I'm the opposite 20yrs ago i used the 323s regularly on the Hadfields. They felt modern, nippy and suited to that task.

Roll on to 2025 and I haven't used the 323 a fraction as much in the last decade. But I had got used to the 331s on the Bolton/Blackpools. While the 319/719 felt a definite step down from the 331s.

Now we have the 323s running alongside the 331s the difference is stark. The 331 has a much nicer more plush interior, I don't really have an issue with the ride quality and the odd clunking is tolerable for me. The 331 is rapid and Air Conditioned something that has become expected today.

I was on several 323 services in the hot part of summer and numerous passengers were remarking on the heat / conditions in the 323s. The interiors are rather stark in comparison to the 331s people had become accustomed to.

I think the 323s needed a heavy internal upgrade 5 years ago if they was to have a future. The recent interview with Northern in MR confirms they don't.. Which is a bit of a shame....

Perhaps they could sling a genset under them or batteries in a brake van, or unicorns could haul them on express parcels?

As an aside the Bolton commuter has I think been a bit hard done by with stock over the last 25yrs... first there was the 175s operation on the line, snatched away for Wales leaving a motley selection of pacers and sprinters, then they subbed in 180s and 185s from a while, before they was taken away, now some of the 331s have gone.

Bringing this back on track from northerns perspective I don't think a fleet simplification could come sooner enough. I don't think adding further fleets, say some 197s from Wales (offset by 22x or 185s on their regional semi express services) is sensible... Perhaps some 158s

I think we need a similar thread for what will the TPE fleet look like in 10/20years.

 

[Rich McLean]

I can see TfW 158s heading up to the North East and allocated at Heaton, so that Ashington Services can be made to mostly 4 car, with the worst 156 examples being released. Some 156s will need to remain for the Cumbrian Coast, but can be confined to Tyne Valley Diagrams.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Despite being 25 years old they still seem very modern, and even though they have 3+2 seating they seem really spacious inside. They cope really well with the demands of Aire valley and Wharfedale lines. I much prefer them to the class 331s (especially as these are now 3 car units on these lines)

I will be very sad to see them go (obviously that is a few years away yet), I am sure whatever replaces them will be a real decline in comfort.

Are they going to be replaced as part of Northerns fleet replacement?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are they going to be replaced as part of Northerns fleet replacement?

Phase 2, AIUA.