Northern Future fleet updates

[CK_House]

So Northern expected to award the contract for upto 450 new trains, apparently early next year. Everyone has there own opinion but would it make most sense to award this to CAF simply for compatibility with existing fleet.

One of the reasons for such a large order is to simplify maintenance costs by not having so many classes but they're testing to add 350s to there fleet.

In understand they want first delivery of new trains by 2030 with 150s, 155s, 156s the first to be replaced. Does anyone have a timescale of when other trains such as the 158s, 323s, 769s will likely be replaced?

And probably way too early to anticipate but with the new fleet could it be possible for Norhern to change the method of dispatch? As of now Northern Coductors open/close on all rolling stock however this seems to always be changing when new rolling stock gets brought in across the country.

 

[tfw756rider]

The existing thread is at:

New units for Northern - shortlist of manufacturers

Exactly. Considering that we need a massive modal shift from road to rail to fight climate change, ordering new stock with only one or two more cars than their predecessors is just setting themselves up for failure. These sets should probably be 6 or 8 cars so that future demand can be handled...

www.railforums.co.uk

It's currently closed (for some reason), but can you can ask for it to be re-opened by reporting the first post, putting what you want to mention/ask as the "report reason".

 

[D365]

So Northern expected to award the contract for upto 450 new trains, apparently early next year. Everyone has there own opinion but would it make most sense to award this to CAF simply for compatibility with existing fleet.

The new fleet(s) will not be compatible with Class 195 or Class 331 for anything other than recovery purposes. There will be no multiple working.

And probably way too early to anticipate but with the new fleet could it be possible for Norhern to change the method of dispatch? As of now Northern Coductors open/close on all rolling stock however this seems to always be changing when new rolling stock gets brought in across the country.

Guard panels will be fitted - it’s not currently anticipated to change the method of working.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In understand they want first delivery of new trains by 2030 with 150s, 155s, 156s the first to be replaced. Does anyone have a timescale of when other trains such as the 158s, 323s, 769s will likely be replaced?

Modern Railways has an article giving some timescales, although it doesn't say when Phases 2 and 3, to replace the younger units, will start .

There are three phases:

Phase 1 is twelve EMUs (3 car), 111 MMUs (48x3-car, 63x4-car) and eight BEMU (4 car), to replace the 150s, 155s and 156s, (Class 769 is not mentioned but, given their age, I guess they would also be in Phase 1)
Phase 2 is not firmed up, but they are looking for fifty EMUs (34x3car, 16x4car), fifty MMUs (30x3car and 20x4car) and twenty-four BEMUs (4car) to replace classes 158, 323 and 333
Phase 3 is to replace class 170, but no quantities are mentioned in the article. (There are, in any case, only nineteen class 170s) The split in phase 3 between EMU, MMU and BEMU will probably depend on progress with electrification and battery range over the coming decade. The MMUs will also be designed to be convertible to BEMUs, and the BEMUs in turn to EMUs.

The first EMUs (to be class 382) will be delivered in 2030 and are intended to operate York-Leeds, and to displace the 323s, which have to leave the WCML before ETCS goes live there in 2031
The first MMUs (to be class 780) will follow in 2031, and the first BEMUs (to be class 781) in 2032

So, totals for phases 1 and 2 could be (subclasses not official)
Class 382/3 46
Class 382/4 16 (total 62)

Class 780/3 78
Class 780/4 83 (total 161)

Class 781/4 32

That's 255 units to replace 255 (classes 15x, 323, 333), in Phases 1 and 2, or 264 if the 769s are included. But it is better than one in one out, as 896 cars are replacing 576 (or 612 with the 769s), as many of the old units are 2-car. (The article suggests that it would be difficult to get everything required of a modern train into a 2-car unit).

There will be options for another 200-odd units, including the Phase 3 replacements for Class 170

Moreover, the class 150 and 769 cars are 20 metres long, whereas the new ones will all be 3- or 4-car and 23 metre.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2025 ==

So Northern expected to award the contract for upto 450 new trains, apparently early next year. Everyone has there own opinion but would it make most sense to award this to CAF simply for compatibility with existing fleet.

All the builders with UK factories, (Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens) plus Stadler have been invited to tender. The article suggests that the EMU, BEMU and MMU contracts could go to different suppliers, and talks about "as much synergy as possible" but there is no definite plan to make the three types work together or have any commonality (although, for it would example, make sense for the MMUs and BEMUs to both be able to use the same battery charging facilities)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So Northern expected to award the contract for up to 450 new trains, apparently early next year. Everyone has there own opinion but would it make most sense to award this to CAF simply for compatibility with existing fleet.

The Modern Railways piece (Oct, p50), following an interview with Northern's Development Director, suggests that the first order might be placed by the end of 2026.
Bids from 5 manufacturers (Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens, Stadler) are expected to be submitted by Feb 2026.
Any order, which might be spread across more than one manufacturer, still has to follow a detailed business case and DfT approval.
The order will be a frame agreement, to be called off in tranches.
At some point, you'd expect GBR to be involved in the procurement.

 

[Snow1964]

It is also worth looking at DFT procurement spreadsheet (which was updated 11th September)

Transpennine have 29 trains (which another DfT page said would be around 205m long). The sheet suggests could be options taking total to 55 units (although not clear where the extra 26 units might be for)

Northern has two entries, the second one has been described above by @norbitonflyer the other entry (line above) refers to replacing the oldest 15x trains. Strangely this earlier Northern entry seems to have a very exact contract value (rather than round ballpark estimated value) which suggests it has been negotiated and agreed in principle (even if not announced). The oldest 15x replacement entry has a date at beginning of March 2026, nearly 3 months before the line with defined lots of BEMUs & EMUs etc

No idea on how this figure has come about, or what stock it refers to, but for all I know might be a future lease of some existing trains from elsewhere, including modifications and upgrades. GBR doesn't exist yet, but you can bet someone somewhere is looking at cascades of trains as interim solution. At this stage can't rule out something like spare 350s becoming BEMUs to replace a number of 15x units.

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

 

[david l]

Won't they need fewer units if the current 6 day railway on the west side continues??

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Won't they need fewer units if the current 6 day railway on the west side continues??

Hopefully that's resolved by 2031!

 

[norbitonflyer]

It is also worth looking at DFT procurement spreadsheet (which was updated 11th September)

Transpennine have 29 trains (which another DfT page said would be around 205m long). The sheet suggests could be options taking total to 55 units (although not clear where the extra 26 units might be for)

Northern has two entries, the second one has been described above by @norbitonflyer the other entry (line above) refers to replacing the oldest 15x trains. Strangely this earlier Northern entry seems to have a very exact contract value (rather than round ballpark estimated value) which suggests it has been negotiated and agreed in principle (even if not announced). The oldest 15x replacement entry has a date at beginning of March 2026, nearly 3 months before the line with defined lots of BEMUs & EMUs etc

Has that earlier entry been superseded by the new one, perhaps? or is a short term one to cover the end of the Class 150s' lease?

Interesting that of all those procurement exetrcises (TPE, Northern, SE, GW) only the Northern one has allocated TOPS classes (according to the Modern railways article), despite both TPE and SE having earlier projected dates for the contracts to start.

 

[tfw756rider]

Interesting that of all those procurement exetrcises (TPE, Northern, SE, GW) only the Northern one has allocated TOPS classes (according to the Modern railways article), despite both TPE and SE having earlier projected dates for the contracts to start.

...before a manufacturer/platform has even been chosen? That's a new one on me!

 

[Snow1964]

Has that earlier entry been superseded by the new one, perhaps? or is a short term one to cover the end of the Class 150s' lease?

Not totally clear why the procurements run in parallel, but feels like the earlier one is for a period covering the years until new trains arrive. So I also think it is a shorter term interim arrangement.

To me the wording (replacement) suggests not a heavy overhaul and life extension or renewed lease of the 15x fleet, but some sort of alternative existing fleet, which suggests some sort of cascade until new trains can go into service. Note it doesn't use the word new in the description (which I have copied here)

Replacement of Northern Trains Limited’s (NTL’s) oldest rolling stock of 15X vehicles over the coming years with options to replace northerns remaining fleet in a framework agreement over 8 years

 

[tfw756rider]

Thanks all for the posts

 

[skyhigh]

Strangely this earlier Northern entry seems to have a very exact contract value (rather than round ballpark estimated value) which suggests it has been negotiated and agreed in principle

The internal line is that the final invitation to tender hasn't yet been issued to bidders, let alone a manufacturer chosen (scheduled for second half of next year).

So either they are being very coy with staff or this doesn't mean what it appears to.

 

[stuu]

What's an MMU?

 

[tfw756rider]

What's an MMU?

Multi Mode Unit (or multi-mode multiple unit).

 

[stuu]

Multi Mode Unit (or multi-mode multiple unit).

Cheers. So what had only ever been called a bi-mode until now... About time we had a new acronym I guess

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers. So what had only ever been called a bi-mode until now... About time we had a new acronym I guess

Multi-mode would add a third mode (or more) e.g. batteries. Bi-mode means only two.

 

[tfw756rider]

Multi-mode would add a third mode (or more) e.g. batteries.

So, tri-mode (overhead electric, battery-electric and diesel)?

My namesake 756s are as described above and are "tri-mode", so why are Northern using the confusing term of "multi-mode"?

(Yes, you even mentioned a fourth mode, but what would that be, and why couldn't that be "quad-mode"?)

 

[Snow1964]

So, tri-mode?

The MMU term seems to be applied where the power unit can be swapped as well, eg a diesel generator replaced later by battery pack. That is can have multiple modes in same fleet (even if some are not actually fitted simultaneously)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The term seems to be applied where the power unit can be swapped as well, eg a diesel generator replaced later by battery pack. That is can have multiple modes (even if some are not actually fitted simultaneously)

Sounds like a 756 to me!

 

[tfw756rider]

The MMU term seems to be applied where the power unit can be swapped as well, eg a diesel generator replaced later by battery pack. That is can have multiple modes in same fleet (even if some are not actually fitted simultaneously)

Ah OK, thanks.

 

[NickBucks]

Would replacements for the GWR and Chiltern 165/166 fleets be included in the figures quoted above?

 

[XCTurbostar]

I hope when the TOPS is given, logic is applied. Use of 382 (as an example) seems reasonable but whilst the 700 range is also being used, this creates inconsistencies.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I hope when the TOPS is given, logic is applied. Use of 382 (as an example) seems reasonable but whilst the 700 range is also being used, this creates inconsistencies.

The numbers make sense
382 is an EMU (as per 3xx)
780 and 781 are bi/multi-mode (as per 750-799)

While yes 382 could have been in the 700-749 range, it might as well go in the 3xx.

 

[meld3]

Cheers. So what had only ever been called a bi-mode until now... About time we had a new acronym I guess

So a class 73 is now a Bi-Mode, not an electro-diesel...

 

[stuu]

So a class 73 is now a Bi-Mode, not an electro-diesel...

Fair point... modern units have generally been referred to as bi/tri mode though

 

[D365]

...before a manufacturer/platform has even been chosen? That's a new one on me!

Class 345 was reserved for Crossrail before Bombardier won the contract.

 

[stuu]

Class 345 was reserved for Crossrail before Bombardier won the contract.

Were they numbered 345s from the 90s attempt at Crossrail?

 

[Snow1964]

Modern Railways has an article giving some timescales, although it doesn't say when Phases 2 and 3, to replace the younger units, will start .

There are three phases:

Phase 1 is twelve EMUs (3 car), 111 MMUs (48x3-car, 63x4-car) and eight BEMU (4 car), to replace the 150s, 155s and 156s, (Class 769 is not mentioned but, given their age, I guess they would also be in Phase 1)

The DfT spreadsheet has a slightly different quality for lot 2, as it shows 48x3car and 64x4car =112 units

The procurement establishes a framework agreement with an 8 year term and this procurement relates to the Phase One requirements which are:
Lot 1: - EMU – required for passenger service 2029-30 with an estimated requirement of 12 x 3-vehicle units.
Lot 2: - MMU – required for passenger service 2030-31 with an estimated requirement of 48 x 3-vehicle units and 64 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 3: - BEMU – required for passenger service 2032 with an estimated initial requirement of 8 x 4-vehicle units.

No idea on why they are different by 1 4car unit

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

 

[mattdickinson]

Were they numbered 345s from the 90s attempt at Crossrail?

I believe they were intended to be Class 341.

British Rail Classes 341 and 342 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org