Northern FTP

[mosmosmos]

Not a complaint, or an argument just don't really understand.

Only one of the ticket windows was open at Halifax station this morning and the queue was out onto the car park outside, so was the self-serve machine. Was running a bit late so asked the guy checking tickets if I could buy on the train or in Leeds, which he said was fine.

Train was packed, two cars instead of the usual 3, and the guard never seemed to emerge other than at the last second to open the doors and dive out at Bradford.

Got to Leeds, walked over to the ticket window to pay my fare and immediately got pulled aside to be issued with one of these FTP notices.

I know the law, however even the police get the point of 'law', 'discretion' and 'common sense' and enforcement for enforcements sake.

So, the questions are as follows;

I walked up to the ticket window to pay the full fare for the journey. What revenue have these 'Revenue Protection officers(?)' actually protected in this circumstance?

Do they get a commission from handing out these notices?

Does this kind of action not just encourage the exact behaviour it is trying to stop? If anyone finds themselves in such a situation again surely the logical thing to do in a station the size of Leeds is to say you came from a station without facilities if they are going to try and prosecute anyway.

Finally, I often drive to Cottingley and catch the train from there, as its a close station with free parking and much easier than parking in Leeds. It's very unusual to be able to buy a ticket on the train. If I go to the ticket window and the same guy is monitoring, how on earth am I meant to prove I've not come from Halifax?

 

[yorkie]

Not a complaint, or an argument just don't really understand.

Only one of the ticket windows was open at Halifax station this morning and the queue was out onto the car park outside, so was the self-serve machine. Was running a bit late so asked the guy checking tickets if I could buy on the train or in Leeds, which he said was fine.

Next time you may want to get some sort of endorsement, or if there are other commuters also going to Leeds in the same position, get everyone to act as a witness for each other.

Train was packed, two cars instead of the usual 3, and the guard never seemed to emerge other than at the last second to open the doors and dive out at Bradford.

Got to Leeds, walked over to the ticket window to pay my fare and immediately got pulled aside to be issued with one of these FTP notices.

Yes, the view of some people working for (or representing) Northern is that passengers have to queue indefinitely due to the lack of adequate ticketing purchasing facilities. Until people complain to their MPs and/or have a legal test case, this will continue.

They're not a company who value your custom particularly.

I know the law, however even the police get the point of 'law', 'discretion' and 'common sense' and enforcement for enforcements sake.

Agreed, but this is Northern Rail. Their Guards are (99%) sound and will apply discretion, but the people who do revenue duties who you encountered do not, and the company is happy for them to treat customers this way. It's not comparable to almost any other situation; you have to use them and they know it!

So, the questions are as follows;

I walked up to the ticket window to pay the full fare for the journey. What revenue have these 'Revenue Protection officers(?)' actually protected in this circumstance?

Their view is that you should be buying at your origin station, and they might argue that by not doing so, and only asking for a ticket at Leeds, you potentially could be 'short faring' (but we'll come to that in a bit).

Do they get a commission from handing out these notices?

I'm not sure. They may have targets even if they aren't on commission.

Does this kind of action not just encourage the exact behaviour it is trying to stop? If anyone finds themselves in such a situation again surely the logical thing to do in a station the size of Leeds is to say you came from a station without facilities if they are going to try and prosecute anyway.

Yes, people could say they came from somewhere without facilities. However they do occasionally choose a station (which will differ each day) to block, so anyone who claims they came from that station on that particular day will not get a failure to pay notice but will immediately end up down the prosecution route.

Finally, I often drive to Cottingley and catch the train from there, as its a close station with free parking and much easier than parking in Leeds. It's very unusual to be able to buy a ticket on the train. If I go to the ticket window and the same guy is monitoring, how on earth am I meant to prove I've not come from Halifax?

Well, exactly, they have to take your word for it. Which is why they want people to buy from origin. But, as I said, one day they'll have a block at Cottingley, and when that happens they'll know anyone claiming to come from Cottingley is 'effing it'

 

[mosmosmos]

Thanks for your prompt and detailed response.

 

[yorkie]

You're welcome

You're in good hands here for any sort of fare advice, whether it be post-travel advice or pre-travel advice.

One more thing to add is that you do need to be careful in future, as Northern will have you down on their list of people who - in their view - should be treated more harshly if you are in a similar position in future.

If you wish to dispute that, because you were authorised by Northern staff to avoid the long queues, my advice is to pay any outstanding amounts (if it's not already paid), but then write to them asking them to remove you from their 'failure to pay' list. If they don't, you can take the matter to Transport Focus and potentially your MP.

 

[gray1404]

These Northern contractors are hopeless and customers are being treated in an unacceptable way. A guy got on the same train as me today as Euxton Balshaw Lane and got off at Leyland. There was one of these contractors representing Northern on the platform. He said he got on a Euxton and the lady replied he should have got a ticket from the guard and asked for his name and address. The guard did not come through between those 2 stations. The guy told her straight that he'd had no chance to buy a ticket and that he'll give her the fare or nothing. She persisted and he simply walked off. Good for him I say. The woman should either have told him a ticket there and then or let him go to the booking office to get one. This practice has got to stop!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, I think, and long have, that Northern should either implement proper Penalty Fares to the relevant Act, with a TVM accepting cash and cards installed at every station except those on specified Paytrain routes, and on-board purchase never permitted again except on those route, or pack it in

At a bare minimum it should be a serious disciplinary offence for staff to indicate that passengers may travel without paying first unless a formal confirmation of that is given in writing. Authorised staff could be given packs of cards to issue in such circumstances; no card, no authority to travel.

 

[sheff1]

At a bare minimum it should be a serious disciplinary offence for staff to indicate that passengers may travel without paying first unless a formal confirmation of that is given in writing. Authorised staff could be given packs of cards to issue in such circumstances; no card, no authority to travel.

In the absence of the above, it sounds like passengers would be best advised to film the authorisation being given

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I agree, I think, and long have, that Northern should either implement proper Penalty Fares to the relevant Act, with a TVM accepting cash and cards installed at every station except those on specified Paytrain routes, and on-board purchase never permitted again except on those route, or pack it in...

I am led to believe that "proper Penalty Fares" are on their way (presumably on the soon to be DOO/DCO routes), but I don't know timescales.

....At a bare minimum it should be a serious disciplinary offence for staff to indicate that passengers may travel without paying first unless a formal confirmation of that is given in writing. Authorised staff could be given packs of cards to issue in such circumstances; no card, no authority to travel.

When Northern organise revenue operations this is exactly the sort of thing they do (especially at unmanned stations), and I have to say I actually really like the idea as it immediately resolves the majority of disputes about where people have come from, but sadly not everyone feels the same way.

As it currently stands, where a queue is significant, staff are supposed to phone through to Retail Control so that a message can be passed on to others. However, company policy is also not to use the phone whilst a member of the public is waiting to be served because it "does not show a professional image" and "causes unnecessary delays".

 

[Starmill]

Clearly company policy doesn't apply to STM at any time then!

 

[scrapy]

Maybe something for another thread but Northerns franchise agreement states 60% of network to be covered by dft approved penalty fares scheme by 2019, 100% by 2022. Stations with less than 3000 passengers per annum don't have to be included. I believe routes out of Liverpool Lime Street will be first to be covered starting in 2018.

 

[14sutton]

Halifax is one of 8 stations to get ticket gates, which will be staffed first to last train 7 days a week.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Clearly company policy doesn't apply to STM at any time then!

STM can do no wrong.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The recently published franchise agreement for Northern says:

[the Franchisee shall] use best endeavours to implement Penalty Fare Zones on 60% of all Routes by 31 December 2019 and on all remaining Routes by 31 December 2022. The Franchisee shall be responsible for obtaining any approval required under Section 130 of the Act prior to the implementation of the Penalty Fare Zone;

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good, about time.

 

[crehld]

Good, about time.

While I share your satisfaction this is happening, I really do hope this will be in conjunction with significant investment in adequate ticket issuing facilities, something which many Northern stations lack. I really do hope that every station in the penalty fare area will be provided with ticket facilities, and that such facilities will permit a full and comprehensive range of tickets to be sold and accept both cash and credit card payments. Anything short of this will significantly undermine any penalty fares scheme put in place.