Northern Excess?

[Stonesourscotty]

Hi i am pretty new to excessing tickets but if i have a Orrell-Wigan Off Peak Return £2.50 and i use the Outbound leg but return in the evening peak what excess should i have paid as the Northern Clerk Excessed Both Halves i think? £1.70 Extra?

 

[Camden]

Yes. Peak is £4.20.

Don't feel too hard done by, an off-peak single is only 10p cheaper than your return anyway, and a peak single is £2.80.

 

[bb21]

A change of ticket type excess is the full difference between the relevant fares so you were correctly charged. This applies even you only require the excess in one direction.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately, because of the way the Railway Industry is geared up to squeezing as much money out of you as possible, you cannot excess half of a ticket to a different type and so must pay to excess the whole thing, even if your outward has already expired.

Sorry if it seems pedantic, but I also think you had an Off-Peak Day Return.

If you were travelling on the 1759, it's only half an hour's wait for the 1831 - the final train of the night - for which you wouldn't need to pay an excess. If you were on the 1656 (which it sounds like you were if your journey was today) it's probably worth it though.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Unfortunately, because of the way the Railway Industry is geared up to squeezing as much money out of you as possible, you cannot excess half of a ticket to a different type and so must pay to excess the whole thing, even if your outward has already expired.

Whilst it may seem "unfair", it's perfectly logical. When doing a change of ticket type, you're paying the difference between what you've already paid and what you would have paid had you bought the "correct" ticket in the first place.

 

[Starmill]

Whilst it may seem "unfair", it's perfectly logical. When doing a change of ticket type, you're paying the difference between what you've already paid and what you would have paid had you bought the "correct" ticket in the first place.

You're also paying for something you didn't use or need, given you travelled with the restrictions on the part of your ticket that has already expired.

 

[yorkie]

You're also paying for something you didn't use or need, given you travelled with the restrictions on the part of your ticket that has already expired.

I agree; you have to pay for something you don't need when using an Anytime (Day) Return ticket that has to be used instead of an Off Peak (Day) Return, that has both morning & evening barred periods, when you are only travelling during one of these periods.

To clarify, what you are saying is "unfair" is the above concept, rather than the excess fare procedure.

What CyrusWuff is arguing is that the excess fare procedure is logical, because if you only paid half the difference, you'd be circumventing the above charging policy.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You're also paying for something you didn't use or need, given you travelled with the restrictions on the part of your ticket that has already expired.

Perhaps they should just come up with an excess where you pay Off-Peak Day Single for one leg (£2.40) and then excess the other leg (£0.10) to an Anytime Day Single (£2.80). Then you won't have to worry about paying over the odds for one leg........:roll:

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps they should just come up with an excess where you pay Off-Peak Day Single for one leg (£2.40) and then excess the other leg (£0.10) to an Anytime Day Single (£2.80). Then you won't have to worry about paying over the odds for one leg........:roll:

This is much less crazy than it sounds given that an Anytime Single and an Off-Peak Single for a return journey with one leg in the peak and the other not are sometimes cheaper than an Anytime Return...

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is much less crazy than it sounds given that an Anytime Single and an Off-Peak single for a return journey with one leg in the peak and the other not are sometimes cheaper than an Anytime Return...

To me it's another reason why it would be sensible to change to single-fare pricing. You'd just buy (and excess, if required) the two relevant singles rather than a return.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

You used the word 'clerk' which leads me to believe you asked for the excess before travel, correct?

In future, feel free to board a peak train with an off-peak ticket and wait for the guard to come around, as there is no penalty for this type of excess being done on board. Some guards don't even bother, or haven't got time to excess, or will turn a blind eye, etc.

 

[David Goddard]

In future, feel free to board a peak train with an off-peak ticket and wait for the guard to come around, as there is no penalty for this type of excess being done on board. Some guards don't even bother, or haven't got time to excess, or will turn a blind eye, etc.

Even on Northern? Given what some posters have put on here about heir RPIs I wouldn't dare, even if I had NRCOC Condition 12 with me.

 

[Starmill]

It's simply the case, regardless of TOC, that the excess is paid at some point before during or after the journey. If you are approached on the train, by RPIs (I'm not sure these are a thing on Northern anymore, just STM contractors, conductors and a handful of additional ticket sellers) you pay the relevant change of ticket type excess.

 

[Merseysider]

Even on Northern? Given what some posters have put on here about heir RPIs I wouldn't dare, even if I had NRCOC Condition 12 with me.

Yes, even on Northern. Most posters on here with regards to Northern have a problem because they expected to pay on board, or failed to buy at origin and didn't expect to get stung for £80 as a result of not doing so.

If Northern failed to comply with the NRCoC that would be a different matter in itself.

 

[ASharpe]

What happens when you are not sold an excess and walk past an open ticket office to exit the station?

 

[yorkie]

What happens when you are not sold an excess and walk past an open ticket office to exit the station?

Then the chances of being excessed are very slim indeed.

However, if revenue staff were checking people they may ask if you knew that the Off Peak Day ticket was invalid at that time, and if you confirm that you did know that, they may seek to establish why you passed an open ticket office and may wish to take further action in respect of that. This is very theoretical; I've never heard of that happening, but it cannot be ruled out as a possibility.

 

[Merseysider]

What happens when you are not sold an excess and walk past an open ticket office to exit the station?

Then one would be open to accusations of avoiding the full fare, but a quick query ("I've just travelled on an off-peak ticket, do I need to pay any extra?") would cover one's back.

As far as I am aware, Orrell does not have a ticket office.

 

[yorkie]

Then one would be open to accusations of avoiding the full fare, but a quick query ("I've just travelled on an off-peak ticket, do I need to pay any extra?") would cover one's back.

If this was the evening peak, I think the 'average' person would have no idea that an evening peak was applicable as the vast majority of Off Peak tickets have no evening peak. Indeed the protected former Saver fares outside London* cannot have an evening peak as they are protected.

(* including Stevenage, Watford Jn, Reading etc)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You used the word 'clerk' which leads me to believe you asked for the excess before travel, correct?

In future, feel free to board a peak train with an off-peak ticket and wait for the guard to come around, as there is no penalty for this type of excess being done on board. Some guards don't even bother, or haven't got time to excess, or will turn a blind eye, etc.

If a ticket needs excessing and i see it it WILL be excessed to the correct amount. More and more of my colleagues are excessing tickets with the evening peak time now in place for quite a few months.

 

[yorkie]

I missed a few posts earlier, as there was a gap between me opening the thread and replying!

..In future, feel free to board a peak train with an off-peak ticket and wait for the guard to come around, as there is no penalty for this type of excess being done on board. Some guards don't even bother, or haven't got time to excess, or will turn a blind eye, etc.

A word of caution: If a passenger is suspected of deliberately buying the 'wrong' ticket and attempting to avoid payment of the fare, then an authorised person could pass on the evidence to the Prosecutions department for their consideration.

For example, if a a passenger was recognised as regularly commuting with such a ticket, having previously been advised of its lack of validity at that time, and appearing to be avoiding payment of the excess fare.

I know this isn't what you meant at all, but I am concerned some people may interpret your post as suggesting that someone could do that with impunity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this was the evening peak, I think the 'average' person would have no idea that an evening peak was applicable as the vast majority of Off Peak tickets have no evening peak. Indeed the protected former Saver fares outside London* cannot have an evening peak as they are protected.

VT learnt that one the hard way, bringing in peak northbound evening restrictions from Milton Keynes Central then finding out that they were in breach of their franchise agreement to do so.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

VT learnt that one the hard way, bringing in peak northbound evening restrictions from Milton Keynes Central then finding out that they were in breach of their franchise agreement to do so.

Neil

Indeed. I was thinking of that! Did anyone inform Rowan Smith at the DfT and did they get a Franchise Breach Notice? Disappointing if they got away with it! It should be a level playing field, with prosecutions

 

[GadgetMan]

You used the word 'clerk' which leads me to believe you asked for the excess before travel, correct?

In future, feel free to board a peak train with an off-peak ticket and wait for the guard to come around, as there is no penalty for this type of excess being done on board. Some guards don't even bother, or haven't got time to excess, or will turn a blind eye, etc.

Very poor advice. We had a passenger who was boarding with an off-peak ticket at restricted times almost daily, the first few days he was excessed and offered friendly advice. Day four or five his response to the slightly less friendly advice was "yeah whatever"...

Next time I saw him was when I attended court as a witness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I was thinking of that! Did anyone inform Rowan Smith at the DfT and did they get a Franchise Breach Notice? Disappointing if they got away with it! It should be a level playing field, with prosecutions

Never found out, but I do know they didn't last and that was the reason.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

If a ticket needs excessing and i see it it WILL be excessed to the correct amount. More and more of my colleagues are excessing tickets with the evening peak time now in place for quite a few months.

In order to excess a ticket, somebody needs to come and check one first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In order to excess a ticket, somebody needs to come and check one first.

Really the passenger should do that before boarding if they know it is not valid.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Really the passenger should do that before boarding if they know it is not valid.

Neil

OK - this is true; apologies for my poor choice of words.

In order for an excess to take place onboard, there has to be an examination of tickets being carried out.

Is that clear? Or do we have to 'seek the guard' to pay an excess now

 

[Merseysider]

Very poor advice. We had a passenger who was boarding with an off-peak ticket at restricted times almost daily, the first few days he was excessed and offered friendly advice. Day four or five his response to the slightly less friendly advice was "yeah whatever"...

Next time I saw him was when I attended court as a witness.

As yorkie kindly clarified on my behalf, I wasn't suggesting it would be acceptable to do this frequently nor as a means of avoiding the full fare. I would fully expect to see a passenger doing this often and deliberately done bang to rights. My apologies for any misconstruction.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The last time I tried to get such an excess before boarding the clerk spent a while pressing buttons before telling me to just buy it on the train.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In order to excess a ticket, somebody needs to come and check one first.

Strange that most Guards do and it seems to be the trains that you travel on don't! Maybe someones trying to tell you something?