Northern electric unit shortages

[Eric]

Is it me or don’t the 333s need a refurb? I find them genuinely clean and tidy.

Much rather a 333 than a 144 or 150 which have been under the wires recently.

 

[Eric]

Won't happen in London? Trains in London leave people behind with 12 cars sometimes.

And then the next one 12 car one arrives in ten minutes.

Whilst we’re all being left behind by a 40 year old train.

 

[superkev]

How about the HX 332s, which are being replaced. They are mechanically similar to the 333s. ANy chance of Northern getting any?

I think I read somewhere on here that the 332s dont have tpws and would require modification.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think I read somewhere on here that the 332s dont have tpws and would require modification.
K

They've also been run into the ground on HEx, and are said to be pretty much worn out. Oh, and they're owned by the owners of Heathrow, not by a ROSCO.

 

[142Pilot]

How could an Electric work from Southport ? There has been a new Timetable since then

Hahahaha.

It's the new secret camo OLE between Ordsall lane and Southport.

Or wibble.

You decide.

 

[bb21]

And then the next one 12 car one arrives in ten minutes.

Whilst we’re all being left behind by a 40 year old train.

Really?

Try getting left behind a 12-car at somewhere like Clapham Junction in the afternoon peak and see how long your next train may take for some destinations. If the train's short-formed as an 8, you are almost guaranteed people being left behind for some trains.

Very few routes/destinations in the south east outside the London zones have services running every 10 minutes. Plenty of routes/destinations inside the zones don't even have 10-minute frequencies.

I have no interest in a north vs south debate again but let's not pretend it is a problem only certain parts of the country suffer from, especially when things don't go according to plan.

 

[yorksrob]

This is true of Northerns diesel lines as well. Short forms used to be a rarity on the Hallam line, now they are every couple of weeks, if not more often

 

[Eric]

Really?

Try getting left behind a 12-car at somewhere like Clapham Junction in the afternoon peak and see how long your next train may take for some destinations. If the train's short-formed as an 8, you are almost guaranteed people being left behind for some trains.

Very few routes/destinations in the south east outside the London zones have services running every 10 minutes. Plenty of routes/destinations inside the zones don't even have 10-minute frequencies.

I have no interest in a north vs south debate again but let's not pretend it is a problem only certain parts of the country suffer from, especially when things don't go according to plan.

I’m not turning this into a north vs south debate.

I’m saying that the south has had unbelievable funding levels in comparison when compared to the north.

You don’t see 40 year old pacers roaming around London do you?

 

[MatthewRead]

How about the HX 332s, which are being replaced. They are mechanically similar to the 333s. ANy chance of Northern getting any?

They still need substantial modification.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I’m not turning this into a north vs south debate.

I’m saying that the south has had unbelievable funding levels in comparison when compared to the north.

You don’t see 40 year old pacers roaming around London do you?

Do you mean the South can justify 12 car trains economically? GTR, SWR and SE (I believe) all contribute back to the Treasury's coffers.

 

[td97]

The issue is the border between west and east. 319s and 323s sit sunbathing outside Allerton and Longsight all day.
It comes down to Northern not wanting to spend money on training. ScotRail showed how it could be done with 365s though.

 

[Ianigsy]

Is it me or don’t the 333s need a refurb? I find them genuinely clean and tidy.

I don't travel on them every day any more, but I'd say that the upholstery is in desperate need of replacement.

 

[142Pilot]

The issue is the border between west and east. 319s and 323s sit sunbathing outside Allerton and Longsight all day.
It comes down to Northern not wanting to spend money on training. ScotRail showed how it could be done with 365s though.

A very simplistic and ultimately incorrect assumption.

Let's take Leeds drivers who would have to learn the two tractions.

That was take the required traction knowledge at that depot into double figures. They already have a massive amount of traction that they sign. Adding more on would cause no end of issues. How many units do you think a driver can competently know before it becomes an issue - Id say they are at the limit now.

Added to the 5-7 days it takes to train each driver per traction, then seeing if they are cleared to actually go over the routes.

 

[43096]

I’m not turning this into a north vs south debate.

I’m saying that the south has had unbelievable funding levels in comparison when compared to the north.

You don’t see 40 year old pacers roaming around London do you?

If you're going to do the north vs south thing (which you clearly are - despite your protestations), then at least get your facts right.

You don't see 40 year old Pacers roaming around the north, either. That's because the oldest pacers are 33 years old. There are plenty of older trains around London: Classes 313, 315, 317 and 455 for a start.

 

[Mollman]

Pacers on the Southport to Wilmslow route this evening. Can't say I used this route as often as I do but recall it being all electrics prior to May 2018 timetable.

It was meant to have the bi-mode Flex things but they have yet to arrive.

 

[td97]

A very simplistic and ultimately incorrect assumption.

That was take the required traction knowledge at that depot into double figures. They already have a massive amount of traction that they sign. Adding more on would cause no end of issues. How many units do you think a driver can competently know before it becomes an issue - Id say they are at the limit now.

Added to the 5-7 days it takes to train each driver per traction, then seeing if they are cleared to actually go over the routes.

The fact is that Northern is not short of electric units. The root cause is the enormous variety of units that Northern operate, and the headaches that come with that -including increased training and less inter-operability.
A few years ago, the answer could have been the replacement of the Northern 321 (4 units) and 322 (4 units) fleets with some 319s. Replacing 2 classes with 1, and the added bonus of units transferring from either side of the Pennines if there is a temporary shortage, such as now. But impeding 331s mean its not currently worthwhile to do that, so passengers will have to live with short forms and cancellations.

 

[a_c_skinner]

enormous variety of units that Northern operate

Same everywhere (well almost), Electrostars on Southern seem the exception that proves the rule. This is an unintended result of franchising, with loads of little orders as each franchise is let or small parts of larger fleets moved around.

 

[142Pilot]

The fact is that Northern is not short of electric units. The root cause is the enormous variety of units that Northern operate, and the headaches that come with that -including increased training and less inter-operability.
A few years ago, the answer could have been the replacement of the Northern 321 (4 units) and 322 (4 units) fleets with some 319s. Replacing 2 classes with 1, and the added bonus of units transferring from either side of the Pennines if there is a temporary shortage, such as now. But impeding 331s mean its not currently worthwhile to do that, so passengers will have to live with short forms and cancellations.

I don't think northern had the option, contracts dictate what traction you can have, and more importantly what the rosco is willing to loan you. See the 323 for an example of roscos being awkward and now leaving themselves stuck.

 

[Class37.4]

If you're going to do the north vs south thing (which you clearly are - despite your protestations), then at least get your facts right.

You don't see 40 year old Pacers roaming around the north, either. That's because the oldest pacers are 33 years old. There are plenty of older trains around London: Classes 313, 315, 317 and 455 for a start.

But then none of them are buses on rails and most of those are in the process of being replaced by new trains

 

[cjmillsnun]

I’m not turning this into a north vs south debate.

I’m saying that the south has had unbelievable funding levels in comparison when compared to the north.

You don’t see 40 year old pacers roaming around London do you?

So you say that you're not turning this into a north v south debate and then promptly do. The oldest trains on the network currently operate in London and on the south coast. So yes, we do have some very old trains down here. Like the Pacers in Northern, they are due to be replaced (in London at least). Also don't forget well into the first decade of the 2000s the vast majority of the stock was Mk1 based. Yes there have been unbelievable amounts in funding, but they were justified. The North is about to start that process and I believe that is well overdue.

 

[childwallblues]

The issue is the border between west and east. 319s and 323s sit sunbathing outside Allerton and Longsight all day.
It comes down to Northern not wanting to spend money on training. ScotRail showed how it could be done with 365s though.

If Salford Crescent to Leyland had been electrified on time there would not be 319s sitting around at Allerton
Also Allerton has three units 319372/73/446 which are not I understand leased from the ROSCO but are on loan to the TOC and three 319s due for conversion to 769 operaing in day to day service.