Northern (East) electrification opportunities: my ideas

[anti-pacer]

As the wires are likely to be going up between York/Selby and Manchester, could the following local services be achieved once up and running;

Extend 1tph Skipton-Leeds, to York (all stops) 1tph
Extend 1tph Bradford FS-Leeds, to Selby (all stops) 1tph
Create Leeds-Manchester Piccadilly (all stops via Huddersfield) 1tph

Make York-Blackpool North service fast between York and Leeds
Start all Caldervale Line services to Manchester Victoria in Leeds

Also, combine one the 1/2 hourly Ilkley-Leeds services with the Leeds-Doncaster stopper, although this would mean reversing out of Leeds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As the wires are likely to be going up between York/Selby and Manchester, could the following local services be achieved once up and running;

Extend 1tph Skipton-Leeds, to York (all stops) 1tph
Extend 1tph Bradford FS-Leeds, to Selby (all stops) 1tph
Create Leeds-Manchester Piccadilly (all stops via Huddersfield) 1tph

Make York-Blackpool North service fast between York and Leeds
Start all Caldervale Line services to Manchester Victoria in Leeds

Also, combine one the 1/2 hourly Ilkley-Leeds services with the Leeds-Doncaster stopper, although this would mean reversing out of Leeds.

Under the 'Northern Hub' plans, the North Transpennine service pattern will be completely overhauled. I think the current plan is for 6tph between Leeds and Manchester. Between Huddersfield and Manchester 2tph of these will run semi-fast and call at some of the local stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge, replacing the current Hudds-Victoria stopper. I think the plan is for the Leeds-Huddersfield locals to remain (albeit hopefully as EMUs) but I'm not sure there'll be capacity to extend these West of Huddersfield.

 

[anti-pacer]

Under the 'Northern Hub' plans, the North Transpennine service pattern will be completely overhauled. I think the current plan is for 6tph between Leeds and Manchester. Between Huddersfield and Manchester 2tph of these will run semi-fast and call at some of the local stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge, replacing the current Hudds-Victoria stopper. I think the plan is for the Leeds-Huddersfield locals to remain (albeit hopefully as EMUs) but I'm not sure there'll be capacity to extend these West of Huddersfield.

How about the possibility of 1tph on each line being extended from Skipton/Bradford FS to York/Selby, thus replacing the current local stoppers east of Leeds?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I imagine that will be being considered, though one of the problems might be capacity in the through platforms at Leeds. I'd have thought Huddersfield stoppers would be better candidates to extend to the East, simply because they won't have to cross the entire throat West of the station to get there unlike the Airedale/Wharfedale/Doncaster services. It's a shame the viaduct that runs through Holbeck and past Elland Road is no longer in use, as that would allow the Doncaster Stoppers to enter the Southern half of the station without creating so much congestion- In which case extension to York would be easier. Even if Hull is wired in CP6 there will of course still be at least one diesel service running East of Leeds each hour, namely the York-Blackpool (which is likely to be extended to Scarborough to replace the TPE Liverpool service).

 

[Chris125]

It's a shame the viaduct that runs through Holbeck and past Elland Road is no longer in use, as that would allow the Doncaster Stoppers to enter the Southern half of the station without creating so much congestion- In which case extension to York would be easier.

Reopening it has been considered apparently, whether it will or not remains to be seen however.

Chris

 

[ReverendFozz]

Any good reference material I can read online somewhere, as I dont understand how it/will work, and I wont pretend to say I know or understand it, but interested all the same,

A couple of questions

1. Would this electrification allow electric stock to run through to Newcastle on the ECML beyond York?
2. Will this electrification project eventually proceed to Middlesbrough through Yarm and Eaglescliffe and also Scarborough and Hull?
3. What difference does electricity make, are speeds higher under a wire?

 

[IanXC]

1. Would this electrification allow electric stock to run through to Newcastle on the ECML beyond York?

The TP North electrification was announced as Manchester to Leeds because Whitehall apparently thought people wouldn't know where York is! The proposal however is for Manchester to York to be electrified via the route through Huddersfield and Garforth. So yes TP North will allow electric services from Leeds to Newcastle via the current usual route.

2. Will this electrification project eventually proceed to Middlesbrough through Yarm and Eaglescliffe and also Scarborough and Hull?

Currently the proposal is for Leeds to Selby to be electrified to enable a Manchester to Selby TP North service and the local stopper from Leeds to operate as EMU, plus enable the IC East Coast route to take advantage of diversionary routes via Hambleton Junction.

Currently that is the limit of announced electrification, however Network Rail appear to have done some work on understanding the costs of Hull, Middlesbrough and Cleethorpes. Currently there is nothing announced, and my feeling is that Cleethorpes and Middlesbrough are getting less likely, and that Scarborough was never realistic in the first place (although it seems likely that its service will be swapped to be the eastern terminus of the Blackpool North-York DMU service anyway).

Hull is a different case though. A scheme is likely to be relatively low cost as the route from Selby to Hull is very straight and includes very few overbridges, a number of which are likely to already have sufficient clearance. It has been suggested to me that the DfT are looking for the industry to make a contribution to the electrification programme, and that Hull could be it.

Also Hull Trains have proposed that they could undertake the work, to enable them to operate EMUs on their route from Hull to London via Selby and Doncaster. It would seem that would be via a facility charge (a la Chiltern Evergreen programme), and linked to a significant extension of their operating rights which currently expire in December 2016.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

3. What difference does electricity make, are speeds higher under a wire?

Not neccessarily, though EMUs weigh less than equivalent DMUs and can accellerate much quicker- so journey times should fall even if maximum speeds don't change.

 

[tbtc]

There's going to be eight trains an hour on the Dewsbury - Leeds corridor (4x Manchester fasts, 2x Manchester slows, 2x stoppers), which would be best to provide the bulk of the Leeds - Selby/ Hull/ York services.

The Airedale/ Wharfdale services would be better using the bays at Leeds - otherwise thats a lot of conflicting movements.

 

[Eagle]

Not neccessarily, though EMUs weigh less than equivalent DMUs and can accellerate much quicker- so journey times should fall even if maximum speeds don't change.

Additionally, electric trains are cheaper to run than diesels because of fuel costs.

Plus, by electrifying lines, it means that there is going to have to be some new stock introduced somewhere (either on the lines themselves, or somewhere else to cascade EMUs onto the lines).

 

[edwin_m]

Not neccessarily, though EMUs weigh less than equivalent DMUs and can accellerate much quicker- so journey times should fall even if maximum speeds don't change.

An electric can also have a lot more installed power, which gives better acceleration particularly at higher speeds. The power of a DMU is limited by engine size, and if you try to increase the power by fitting a bigger engine you end up with something that uses a lot of fuel (it's called a Voyager).

 

[bluenoxid]

As the wires are likely to be going up between York/Selby and Manchester, could the following local services be achieved once up and running;

Extend 1tph Skipton-Leeds, to York (all stops) 1tph
Extend 1tph Bradford FS-Leeds, to Selby (all stops) 1tph
Create Leeds-Manchester Piccadilly (all stops via Huddersfield) 1tph

Make York-Blackpool North service fast between York and Leeds
Start all Caldervale Line services to Manchester Victoria in Leeds

Also, combine one the 1/2 hourly Ilkley-Leeds services with the Leeds-Doncaster stopper, although this would mean reversing out of Leeds.

As some have mentioned, this would cause substantial conflicts that do not need to occur.

Making York-Blackpool North non stop will certainly assist with the extension although I do wonder if the extension and potential to transmit delays across the network might force it to be split into two. Could we see Scarborough to Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange and Blackpool to Leeds?

One idea I have is to use Selby as a place to "launch" stopping trains through the Leeds - Micklefield corridor. An interesting option might be to run trains on a clockwise turn round using Church Fenton/York and Selby.

A short electrification of Church Fenton to Selby could offer flexibility too.

 

[anti-pacer]

Could we see Scarborough to Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange and Blackpool to Leeds?

Wouldn't this deprive Scarborough of a decent TP link?

A short electrification of Church Fenton to Selby could offer flexibility too.

York-Hull services could then move to EMU's if Hull ever sees the wires.

 

[tbtc]

Making York-Blackpool North non stop will certainly assist with the extension although I do wonder if the extension and potential to transmit delays across the network might force it to be split into two. Could we see Scarborough to Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange and Blackpool to Leeds?

That's a good idea, gives Scarborough a direct link to almost all of the large places in West Yorkshire, maintains a link from Bradford to the ECML at York and minimises disruptions/ running DMUs under the wires to an acceptable (IMHO) level

 

[anti-pacer]

That's a good idea, gives Scarborough a direct link to almost all of the large places in West Yorkshire, maintains a link from Bradford to the ECML at York and minimises disruptions/ running DMUs under the wires to an acceptable (IMHO) level

Why not just run it to Bradford? Saves reversing.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably to replace one leg of the "round the houses" between Bradford and Huddersfield. Someone suggested this section is very busy, in which case the need for reasonable comfort on the rest of the journey suggests 170 or 185 stock rather than 158.

 

[David Goddard]

So essentially getting back some of the services they had twelve years ago when Northern Spirit/Transpenninexpress were in operation, with Liverpool - Newcastles (as there was in loco hauled days) and Blackpool - Scarboroughs. Makes much more sense to me.

 

[tbtc]

Why not just run it to Bradford? Saves reversing.

Run which one to Bradford? The Scarborough portion? Because then you cut one of the Leeds - Halifax services (unless you can magic up additional paths through Leeds City Station).

 

[swt_passenger]

Any good reference material I can read online somewhere, as I dont understand how it/will work, and I wont pretend to say I know or understand it, but interested all the same,

Proposed service pattern changes in the area following electrification and Northern Hub were shown here (along with loads of other stuff nationally): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...hment_data/file/3643/illustrative-options.pdf

There are some other sources but that seems to provide a decent overview, although it will be subject to change.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Also, combine one the 1/2 hourly Ilkley-Leeds services with the Leeds-Doncaster stopper, although this would mean reversing out of Leeds.

According to West Yorkshire PTE they are planning an every 30 minute service on the Doncaster - Leeds stopper in the near future as part of their railplan idea.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

According to West Yorkshire PTE they are planning an every 30 minute service on the Doncaster - Leeds stopper in the near future as part of their railplan idea.

This is an aspiration of WYPTE yes, though I'm not sure there's room for another stopper in between the other services on the route (2tph to KX; 1tph XC; 1tph Sheffield via Rotherham)... Perhaps if the second Donny runs semi-fast... or if the Sheffield becomes EMU post CP6?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

This is an aspiration of WYPTE yes, though I'm not sure there's room for another stopper in between the other services on the route (2tph to KX; 1tph XC; 1tph Sheffield via Rotherham)... Perhaps if the second Donny runs semi-fast... or if the Sheffield becomes EMU post CP6?

I think the idea was to scrap Northern Rail's service to Adwick and replace it with another EMU Leeds stopper service that would call at Bentley & Adwick

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the idea was to scrap Northern Rail's service to Adwick and replace it with another EMU Leeds stopper service that would call at Bentley & Adwick

That does make sense and would deal with congestion at the Donny end- though I was more concerned about capacity between Leeds and the Junction North of Moorthorpe/South Elmsall.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

That does make sense and would deal with congestion at the Donny end- though I was more concerned about capacity between Leeds and the Junction North of Moorthorpe/South Elmsall.

Back over to West Yorkshire PTE to answer that one, unless you knock off one of the ECML service to Leeds and have a every hourly service

 

[bluenoxid]

Is the line really that congested? 5 trains per hour is not really congested. I understand the speed difference but it just seems to be a poor excuse. I think it would be good to speed up the Sheffield service as well and just get it going.

 

[tbtc]

You could shave at least five minutes off the Sheffield - Dearne Valley - Leeds stopper by omitting the three "local" stations on the line (which the Doncaster EMUs would serve), maybe a little more, which could make it competitive with the Sheffield - Kirkgate - Leeds "semi fasts" - maybe timed so that it wouldn't get overtaken en-route?

(I've argued in the past in favour of a half hourly Leeds - Doncaster - Sheffield EMU stopper post CP6 electrification of the Mexborough line - but that's another story for another thread)
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Is the line really that congested? 5 trains per hour is not really congested. I understand the speed difference but it just seems to be a poor excuse. I think it would be good to speed up the Sheffield service as well and just get it going.

In "Southern Region" terms, no, not very congested.

The mix of 75mph DMUs and 125mph Voyagers/ HSTs/ 225s obviously mucks things up (as you acknowledge).

I think that the other problem is the way that services are pathed around each other - e.g. the Dearne Valley stopper is timed to be overtaken by the Voyager at Rotherham - which leaves little room to tweak the times.