Northern Delay Repay Rejected

[tom3107]

Good evening,

I was travelling from Manchester to Sheffield last Sunday 30th October and planned on taking the 1045 Northern stopper service. The ticket was the return portion of a ticket purchased on the 8th October. When I arrived at MAN the 1045 was showing as cancelled on the boards and I ended up taking the 1145 stopper, arriving into Sheffield 1 hour late.

I put in a delay repay claim and Northern rejected this saying the timetable was changed the day before at 10pm and the 1045 was removed. I appealed this on the basis that when I bought the ticket the trains were showing as running normally, and that services cannot just be erased. This appeal was rejected and I made a complaint to Northern by phone who told me nothing would come of it as this is policy.

Are Northern correct about this or is it worth going to the Ombudsman? For me it is not about £8 of delay repay but the principle of how they are treating customers. The entire Sheffield-Manchester route has been absolutely shocking over the past few months.

 

[XAM2175]

Are Northern correct about this or is it worth going to the Ombudsman? For me it is not about £8 of delay repay but the principle of how they are treating customers. The entire Sheffield-Manchester route has been absolutely shocking over the past few months.

Yes, the National Rail Conditions of Travel were amended in February this year to exclude Delay Repay liability if the cancellation or delay was "published" before 10pm the night prior to travel, even if you already hold tickets. "Published" is generally held to mean "visible in the National Rail Enquiries journey planner" for this purpose.

There is debate as to whether the change is legal from a consumer rights perspective, but in the meantime Northern (or indeed any other TOC) are able to rely on that change to deny claims.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

However, the NRCoT change does not affect your entitlement to the remedies provided in Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 (the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulations), so as you were delayed for 60 or more minutes you are entitled to claim compensation under the Article 17 provisions. For delays of 60 to 119 minutes the compensation will be 25% of the ticket price, which - since it was a return ticket - will be deemed to be half of the overall price you paid for the ticket (that is, 25% of 50% of the overall cost of the return ticket).

You should request this from Northern through the complaints process, unless somebody else here is able to inform us of a dedicated claim route. Northern are required to pay the compensation within one month of your request, and they are not permitted to charge a fee or make any other deductions. They are allowed to offer you vouchers, but if you request payment in cash* they are required to agree to it.

There is a helpful guidance page on the regulations published by the Government:

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

* = the EU text of the regulations uses "money" in place of "cash", which I suspect is intended to allow for bank transfers or even cheques, etc etc, rather than just physical cash.

 

[furlong]

If the claim is based on what the nationalrail website said at 22:00 then ask them for a copy from that time showing that it did not form part of the schedule of services for Sunday. (Unless they already have a copy of this, then they are in no position to deny the claim on those grounds.)
And then ask them how they explain that public websites that track this information, for example, https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=105152757 indicate that the cancellation was not published until a couple of hours before the service was meant to run.
There's disruption for the next 2 weekends, but for Sunday 27th November and beyond you might want to check nationalrail daily for this and other similar services that are regularly cancelled and see when they disappear from the website.

 

[Watershed]

There is debate as to whether the change is legal from a consumer rights perspective, but in the meantime Northern (or indeed any other TOC) are able to rely on that change to deny claims.

It's not so much that they can rely on it, as that they simply are refusing claims - and will continue to do so unless and until they're challenged.

They know full well that it is unlikely to be worth someone's time and effort to bring legal action over what are, in the grand scheme of things, usually small amounts of compensation.

It really needs the ORR or politicians to step in for anything to change.

However, the NRCoT change does not affect your entitlement to the remedies provided in Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 (the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulations), so as you were delayed for 60 or more minutes you are entitled to claim compensation under the Article 17 provisions. For delays of 60 to 119 minutes the compensation will be 25% of the ticket price, which - since it was a return ticket - will be deemed to be half of the overall price you paid for the ticket (that is, 25% of 50% of the overall cost of the return ticket).

You should request this from Northern through the complaints process, unless somebody else here is able to inform us of a dedicated claim route. Northern are required to pay the compensation within one month of your request, and they are not permitted to charge a fee or make any other deductions. They are allowed to offer you vouchers, but if you request payment in cash* they are required to agree to it.

Unfortunately, Northern are likely entitled to refuse to pay out a claim for delay compensation under the PRO as the amount of compensation will probably fall below the €4 (£3.48) threshold established by Article 17(3).

The 25% of 50% would amount to £2.62 if the OP held an undiscounted Northern only Off-Peak Return, £3.15 if an Any Permitted Off-Peak Return, or £3.46 if a Northern only Anytime Short Distance Return.

Only if the OP held an undiscounted Any Permitted Anytime Short Distance / Anytime Return would this entitle them to sufficient compensation under the PRO (£4.40) to exceed the threshold.

 

[XAM2175]

It's not so much that they can rely on it, as that they simply are refusing claims - and will continue to do so unless and until they're challenged.

They know full well that it is unlikely to be worth someone's time and effort to bring legal action over what are, in the grand scheme of things, usually small amounts of compensation.

It really needs the ORR or politicians to step in for anything to change.

They're using that new wording to justify refusing the claims, which is close enough to relying on it for these purposes. Nevertheless I agree with your overall point.

Unfortunately, Northern are likely entitled to refuse to pay out a claim for delay compensation under the PRO as the amount of compensation will probably fall below the €4 (£3.48) threshold established by Article 17(3).

Pedantically, it says that railway undertakings may establish a €4.00 minimum, not that such a minimum automatically applies - but this is of course a trivial difference. Foolishly I neglected to do the sums on the amount claimable before responding

 

[yorkie]

I would push this; everyone who is rejected for this reason should dispute it and create extra work for the company as I don't think the 10pm exclusion is legal.

Please let us know how you get on!

 

[ServerHoster]

I would push this; everyone who is rejected for this reason should dispute it and create extra work for the company as I don't think the 10pm exclusion is legal.

Please let us know how you get on!

I've already sent them a really long complaint when I suffered a 61 minute delay a few days ago. I will see what they reply.

 

[Southern Beau]

This was the response Northern sent me after my train was removed the evening before travel, and hence caused a delay:

Because the service that you were intending to travel on was removed after you purchased your ticket, if you did not travel as a result of this, you would be able to request a full refund.


However, as is stated in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, "you are entitled to compensation if the delay was 60 minutes or longer, regardless of fault. Compensation is based on the delay in your arrival time at the destination station, as compared to the arrival time stated in the Published Timetable of the Day.” (Section 32.1). In this document it also states that the '“Published Timetable of the Day” means the schedule of services, including rail replacement services, applicable on the day you travel or plan to travel (different to May or December timetable). These changes will be published no later than 22:00 the day before travel and available at www.nationalrail.co.uk' (page 31). This document can be seen here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf.

As a result of this, as stated in my previous email, we unfortunately would not be able to offer delay repay compensation.

I apologise for any frustration and disappointment caused by this

 

[Watershed]

This was the response Northern sent me after my train was removed the evening before travel, and hence caused a delay

“Because the service that you were intending to travel on was removed after you purchased your ticket, if you did not travel as a result of this, you would be able to request a full refund.


However, as is stated in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, "you are entitled to compensation if the delay was 60 minutes or longer, regardless of fault. Compensation is based on the delay in your arrival time at the destination station, as compared to the arrival time stated in the Published Timetable of the Day.” (Section 32.1). In this document it also states that the '“Published Timetable of the Day” means the schedule of services, including rail replacement services, applicable on the day you travel or plan to travel (different to May or December timetable). These changes will be published no later than 22:00 the day before travel and available at www.nationalrail.co.uk' (page 31). This document can be seen here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf.

As a result of this, as stated in my previous email, we unfortunately would not be able to offer delay repay compensation.

I apologise for any frustration and disappointment caused by this”

Whilst of course they're correct that this is what the NRCoT say, that doesn't necessarily mean that the exclusion is legally enforceable.

Unfortunately, challenging that exclusion (i.e. in Court) would likely involve spending more time and money than the recovery of a comparatively small amount of compensation at stake justifies. And they know this full well.

 

[Southern Beau]

As requested by admin, To clarify, my train was running when I booked my ticket several weeks prior to travel. On the afternoon of travel, I found my train had been cancelled. I could not travel earlier as I was attending a football match, this I arrived at my destination an hour later than intended (part of my journey has 1tph).
I claimed delay repay from Northern which was rejected.
I appealed and stated that my contract with Northern was cemented when I purchased the tickets and based on those train times.
The response was as per my previous message.

Hopefully that clears things up and sorry for any confusion which has been caused to many forum members

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2022 ==

This was the response Northern sent me after my train was removed the evening before travel, and hence caused a delay:

 

[Kite159]

This was the response Northern sent me after my train was removed the evening before travel, and hence caused a delay:

Would a claim under the consumer rights act (service not operated with Reasonable care and skill) work, unless Northern can find a way to weasel out paying up under that?

I would push this; everyone who is rejected for this reason should dispute it and create extra work for the company as I don't think the 10pm exclusion is legal.

Please let us know how you get on!

I reckon if someone famous (say for example Martin Lewis) makes it more well known (as I think he is one of the 'famous' people who push to ensure passengers claim back delay repay when they are delayed), then the RDG will change their tone to avoid as much backlash from negative PR.

 

[Class800]

I would push this; everyone who is rejected for this reason should dispute it and create extra work for the company as I don't think the 10pm exclusion is legal.

Please let us know how you get on!

Agree. Also want to add that from my experience - but it might not be universal - that trains removed from the timetable the night before do not appear on the departure boards at all at the station, which makes this case seem rather different.

 

[philthetube]

Has anyone asked Northern where the published timetable of the day is published, if they are unable to provide a copy of the publication then surely that should be game over.

Some obscure link to a site no one can be expected to know would not cut it

 

[Watershed]

Has anyone asked Northern where the published timetable of the day is published, if they are unable to provide a copy of the publication then surely that should be game over.

Some obscure link to a site no one can be expected to know would not cut it

Well this is the thing - it's not "published" anywhere in the traditional sense. And whilst if you checked NRE at 22:00, you'd see the PToD, NRE is continuously updated and so if you check it later, it would also show on-the-day cancellations and changes without distinguishing them from PToD cancellations.

This renders it almost completely impossible for a passenger to know what the PToD actually is, and is one of many reasons why I regard the PToD exclusion as an unfair term in a consumer contract.

 

[Southern Beau]

Has anyone asked Northern where the published timetable of the day is published, if they are unable to provide a copy of the publication then surely that should be game over.

Some obscure link to a site no one can be expected to know would not cut it

I requested a log to show when my service was removed from the timetable and they duly sent me a screenshot showing the timeline

 

[philthetube]

I requested a log to show when my service was removed from the timetable and they duly sent me a screenshot showing the timeline

That cannot in any way be considered a published timetable and is therefore not acceptable.

 

[AlterEgo]

That cannot in any way be considered a published timetable and is therefore not acceptable.

Agreed. If the passenger cannot access the timetable it is not “published” in any meaningful way.

 

[furlong]

I requested a log to show when my service was removed from the timetable and they duly sent me a screenshot showing the timeline

Was that screenshot from some internal page on National Rail Enquiries? Or just some other internal system the train company uses?

If it was not from NRE, then ask NRE for this same information - (a) at what time do NRE's records say that it was removed from the timetable on the public website? (b) at what time was the PToD published on that specific day?

 

[td97]

I have had *some* success at gaining compensation from Northern with a service pre-cancelled the day before.
I emailed a complaint (not delay repay), based on the inconvenience caused by a cancellation (as I actually arrived earlier than my cancelled train, but with a stressfully cross-Manchester dash) and lack of communication. I held an Advance ticket.
I kept it fairly simple to start with and said I felt their service was not delivered with reasonable care or skill under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
Northern initially replied with their usual spiel about pre-cancelled trains provide stability to passengers, traincrew shortages due to COVID, so they are not obliged to provide compensation under the NRCoT etc.
I replied stating I wasn't happy with their response and went further with my argument based on the Consumer Rights Act

• Expanded on service not delivered with reasonable care or skill
• Not providing compensation allows them to fundamentally alter the contract at will which is an unfair position to me as the consumer. Thanks to @Watershed for this one.

The outcome is I am getting compensation equivalent to the ticket price "as a goodwill gesture only" and "not to be taken as a precedent"!. But this is good enough an outcome for me

 

[Kite159]

It's a bit like how Northern would refuse to pay out delay repay if you were using a "Multi-Model" product [i.e. GM Wayfarer, South Yorkshire Connect+] trying to weasel out by saying they don't set the T&Cs of those products, only to eventually pay out as a "gesture of goodwill" knowing that if it went in front of a judge in court that 'clause' was hidden away so wasn't enforceable.

(After-all not much point saying "you could have used it on the bus to reduce the delay" when there is no bus/tram services between the places [or the bus is so slow it gets overtaken by the following train]

 

[miklcct]

Well this is the thing - it's not "published" anywhere in the traditional sense. And whilst if you checked NRE at 22:00, you'd see the PToD, NRE is continuously updated and so if you check it later, it would also show on-the-day cancellations and changes without distinguishing them from PToD cancellations.

This renders it almost completely impossible for a passenger to know what the PToD actually is, and is one of many reasons why I regard the PToD exclusion as an unfair term in a consumer contract.

In technical terms, a cancelled train is shown on the departure board as cancelled, while a deleted train is not shown anywhere. Deleting a train should only be done if the train is published in the timetable in error.

Deletions​

Darwin supports the deletion of schedules in addtion to cancellations. Deletions differ from cancellations in how the results are presented to the public. Cancellations are intended to be presented on public facing systems to indicate a service which was expected to run (or call at a location) but for some operational reason is no longer expected to run (or call at location). Cancellations happen on a daily basis for a number of differing reasons.

Deletions are resevered for removing invalid or out of date schedule data and, unlike cancellations, schedules marked as deleted must not be shown or displayed on customer facing applications. Much rarer than cancellations, deletions generally occur when either significant corruption of data has led to schedules being published which do not reflect actual train running or when emergency timetables have to be published and Network Rail issue an emergency CIF file to NRE for publication through Darwin. Deleted schedules may be undeleted (republished through the push port minus the deleted attribute) to re-instate them on public displays.

As noted above, the key reason for deletions over cancellations is error control, to ensure only correct schedule information is displayed to customers.

For example, if an emergency timetable, due to for example, natural disaster, or chronic staff shortage, has to be put on the previous day before 10 pm, the trains in the original timetable are deleted. They can't be found on National Rail Enquiries nor on the departure board. If you can see the train on the board, it is certainly on the schedule which you are entitled to claim Delay Repay.

timetablehistory.com is a good resource to check if the train is still on the schedule on the day, or if it has been deleted before.