Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[Greybeard33]

The comparison of a 319 with a 142 or a sprinter does not particularly gain us anything. The problem will be with Cheadle Hulme to Crewe / Stoke-on-Trent. The xx04 service from Manchester to Crewe arrives just 5 minutes ahead of the xx30 ATW and the Stoke-on-Trent just 5 minutes ahead of the XC to the South West.

If a 319 is a suitable replacement, why have they fared so poorly on Airport shuttles?

Has anyone suggested that 319s will be used on the Stoke line? As jcollins posted:

323s go off lease on 1st Jan 2019. New CAF trains should start to be delivered from mid 2018.

IIRC Arriva has said that some of the 331s are for the S Manchester services. Hopefully enough will be delivered to take over the Stoke and Crewe via Stockport services by the time the 323s depart.

 

[Starmill]

No. But the headway between the fast and the stopper are relatively similar on both routes. Northern certainly did plan to use 331s on South Manchester services, but I'm somewhat doubtful there are enough of them for all that.

Bevan Prince's graph shows that it takes 90 seconds for a 319 to reach 90mph. How long will it take to reach 100mph? More than 2 minutes? A 323 is only given 8 minutes to get from Alderley Edge to Holmes Chapel. The only other gaps that may offer 100mph that I can see that are 7 minutes between Crewe and Sandbach and 7 between Stockport and Cheadle Hulme. Perhaps there is some possibility of changes to the schedule.

 

[Jamesrob637]

319s will surely be used between Piccadilly and Stockport on the Hazel Grove to Preston/Blackpool service. Their acceleration is better than the mix of 142s, 150s and 156s that they will be replace, and anyway the 4-track line enables overtaking. I guess they might also be used on the Alderley Edge via Stockport service. Although that is currently timed for 90mph 323s, a Sprinter often stands in when there are insufficient 323s available for service.

Where 319 performance would be problematic is on the 2-track Cheadle Hulme to Stoke line, where the stoppers have to fit in the gaps between 2tph VTWC Pendolinos and 2tph XC Voyagers. However, it appears that the Northern plan here is to replace the 323s by 331s.

Funny you should mention that; a Pacer was deputising for a 323 on the 16:38 Piccadilly to Alderley Edge yesterday! Must have been rammed as far as Heaton Chapel where I saw it; loads of people got off there as per usual.

Yes let's hope (single or double 4 car or double 3 car) 331s replace the 323s especially on peak South Manchester services. AIUI Stoke station can't accommodate a 4-car unit, but maybe the peak working could run as a 3-car 331 to Stockport then another come off the sidings and hitch on to the front for extra capacity at Heaton and Levenshulme? Wouldn't need to foul any other tracks as the platform where the stoppers call (4) is nearest the sidings anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bevan Prince's graph shows that it takes 90 seconds for a 319 to reach 90mph. How long will it take to reach 100mph? More than 2 minutes? A 323 is only given 8 minutes to get from Alderley Edge to Holmes Chapel. The only other gaps that may offer 100mph that I can see that are 7 minutes between Crewe and Sandbach and 7 between Stockport and Cheadle Hulme. Perhaps there is some possibility of changes to the schedule.

It's only 90mph Sandbach-Crewe (but everything comes to a dead stand at Sydney Bridge for the crawl into Crewe anyway).
The 319s would have no problems on the Airport-Crewe semi-fast.
They cruise very well at 100mph on the WCML between Wigan and Balshaw Lane, and gain time hand over fist at 90mph over the 75mph DMUs over Chat Moss.

I don't see the problem via Macclesfield either.
The Stoke stoppers run in the 30 minute slot between successive VT/XC services and seem to have time at both ends (6 minutes at Stoke).
They could always be looped at Macclesfield, something that doesn't happen at the moment.
Macclesfield-Congleton-Kidsgrove are sections they can use their 100mph speed to good effect.

 

[Greybeard33]

No. But the headway between the fast and the stopper are relatively similar on both routes. Northern certainly did plan to use 331s on South Manchester services, but I'm somewhat doubtful there are enough of them for all that.

Bevan Prince's graph shows that it takes 90 seconds for a 319 to reach 90mph. How long will it take to reach 100mph? More than 2 minutes? A 323 is only given 8 minutes to get from Alderley Edge to Holmes Chapel. The only other gaps that may offer 100mph that I can see that are 7 minutes between Crewe and Sandbach and 7 between Stockport and Cheadle Hulme. Perhaps there is some possibility of changes to the schedule.

There will certainly be changes to the Piccadilly to Stockport timetable after the Ordsall Chord opens. Currently there are gaps to enable the three TPE North services to cross Piccadilly throat. Off peak there will be the three additional hourly Northern services, to Greenback, New Mills Newtown and Macclesfield. The Stoke services will skip Prestbury and Adlington, reducing journey time. Maybe it will be possible to improve separation between fast and stopping services on the Crewe line too.

 

[northwichcat]

Funny you should mention that; a Pacer was deputising for a 323 on the 16:38 Piccadilly to Alderley Edge yesterday! Must have been rammed as far as Heaton Chapel where I saw it; loads of people got off there as per usual.

The 16:38 Piccadilly to Alderley Edge was one of the services Northern found they could use a DMU on without any major problems if they are a 323 down. If a 323 due to work a Hadfield/Stoke/Crewe service fails, the 323 due to work that Alderley Edge service quite often gets nabbed. However, looking at RTT it was 5 minutes behind schedule at Wilmslow.

 

[Philip]

I notice the long running gag that is Clifton Junction has still not been acted upon in the plan. Why can't they just stop some of the Bolton line stoppers at Clifton? When Moorside and Hag Fold both have an hourly service it's hard to understand why Clifton is a parliamentary.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes let's hope (single or double 4 car or double 3 car) 331s replace the 323s especially on peak South Manchester services. AIUI Stoke station can't accommodate a 4-car unit, but maybe the peak working could run as a 3-car 331 to Stockport then another come off the sidings and hitch on to the front for extra capacity at Heaton and Levenshulme? Wouldn't need to foul any other tracks as the platform where the stoppers call (4) is nearest the sidings anyway.

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=133659 and http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135328 for previous speculation about the deployment of the 331s. From the numbers ordered it seems unlikely there will be any doubling up west of the Pennines, except perhaps on the Blackpool to Manchester Airport Northern Connect service.

 

[Greybeard33]

I notice the long running gag that is Clifton Junction has still not been acted upon in the plan. Why can't they just stop some of the Bolton line stoppers at Clifton? When Moorside and Hag Fold both have an hourly service it's hard to understand why Clifton is a parliamentary.

Because stops at Clifton would hold up the fast trains on the Bolton line. Moorside and Hag Fold are on the Atherton line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Some detail on Northern Dec/May timetable changes in GM area. All introductions from Dec 2017 unless mentioned as May 2018.

TPE Scotland trains rerouted via Bolton in off peak from Dec however Northerns offpeak Manchester-Wigan via Chat Moss service wont start till May leaving a 6 month offpeak gap. Extra capacity will be put on other Wigan services to cover.

Bolton 2tph all day Blackburn-Manchester Mon-Sat from Dec, Preston-Blackpool North blocked 11th November 2017-25th March 2018. From Dec 2017 Manchester Preston operated by 319 with faster journey times between Preston and Salford Crescent.

Atherton 2tph Sun
Liverpool-Wigan 2tph Sun including one call at Bryn
Chat Moss sunday stopper including a 1tph call at Patricroft
Calder Valley XX48 service extended from Victoria to Oxford Road
3 AM and 2 PM peak Rochdale-Manchester services utilising Rochdale bay.
1 additional AM peak call at Moston and 2 at Mills Hill


Previously expected Dec 2017 introduction/New introduction date
All Day Calder Valley 2tph Moston, 5tph Rochdale, 1tph Bradford-Chester May 18
Blackburn Manchester 2tph all day Dec 2017
Wigan-Atherton 4tph all day May 2018
4tph all day Hazel Grove, 2tph to New Mills and Newtown May 2018
Macclesfield-Manchester 2tph all day May 2018
1tph Chester-Manchester and 1tph Greenbank-Manchester all day May 2018
1tph Liverpool-Manchester Airport via CLC May 2018
4tpd Windermere, 8tpd Barrow via Wigan May 2018
An hourly Sunday service in to Manchester on all routes by 10am Dec 2017-May 2018

Northern May 2018 timetable consultation expected in April.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/1937/06_appendix_f

 

[northwichcat]

^ Do they really mean 2tph between Greenbank and Manchester 'all day' (as it says on the Powerpoint slides.) I thought the franchise spec required it from 6am to 7pm, with an hourly service between around 7pm and the last service. I imagine other lines had an evening reduction included in the franchise spec as well.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well you could probably say after 7pm was 'night' It may well vary according to demand on individual lines.

 

[northwichcat]

Well you could probably say after 7pm was 'night' It may well vary according to demand on individual lines.

Not in May it isn't.

 

[WatcherZero]

That's why the quotations

 

[Philip]

TPE going back to running via Bolton as soon as December? The line won't have its electrification finished until not long before then. Will they go back to using 185s on Scotland services briefly, until either the 350s have passed the Bolton/Chorley line clearance tests or the 397s arrive?

 

[WatcherZero]

Currently tocs are expecting electrification to be complete second week of December though if it slips a couple of weeks shouldnt be too bad.

 

[Greybeard33]

^ Do they really mean 2tph between Greenbank and Manchester 'all day' (as it says on the Powerpoint slides.) I thought the franchise spec required it from 6am to 7pm, with an hourly service between around 7pm and the last service. I imagine other lines had an evening reduction included in the franchise spec as well.

Eastbound the franchise spec requires the Mid-Cheshire to have 4 trains, not 3, betwween 1900 and 2159. But the 4th has to start at Chester and call at all stations except Mobberley and Ashley.

Between 0700 and 0959 eastbound, and between 1600 and 1859 westbound, all stations have to have 5 trains, as now, with Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham getting 6. In the contra-peak direction those five stations get 2tph versus 1tph at the other stations, same as the inter-peak service.

 

[northwichcat]

It's only 90mph Sandbach-Crewe (but everything comes to a dead stand at Sydney Bridge for the crawl into Crewe anyway).
The 319s would have no problems on the Airport-Crewe semi-fast.
They cruise very well at 100mph on the WCML between Wigan and Balshaw Lane, and gain time hand over fist at 90mph over the 75mph DMUs over Chat Moss.

I don't see the problem via Macclesfield either.
The Stoke stoppers run in the 30 minute slot between successive VT/XC services and seem to have time at both ends (6 minutes at Stoke).
They could always be looped at Macclesfield, something that doesn't happen at the moment.
Macclesfield-Congleton-Kidsgrove are sections they can use their 100mph speed to good effect.

Saying 319s do well when running services which are still timed to be operated by 75mph 142s, 150s or 156s is meaningless. In fact if the 319s had more reliable Northern may have been more willing to change the times to be based on services being run by 100mph EMUs.

The performance of 319s on the Airport shuttles suggests either they are either slower to accelerate compared to 323s (as widely reported) or the process of opening/closing the doors is slower.

With a peak time service like this: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y65496/2017/04/03/advanced it leaves Piccadilly just after a London via Stoke service and arrives at Stoke just before the next London service. While the off-peak stoppers will be speeded up, the morning peak ones towards Manchester and the evening peak ones from Manchester will continue to call at all stations between Stockport and Macclesfield.

 

[northwichcat]

Eastbound the franchise spec requires the Mid-Cheshire to have 4 trains, not 3, betwween 1900 and 2159. But the 4th has to start at Chester and call at all stations except Mobberley and Ashley.

Best case scenario for those travelling eastbound in the evening would be arrivals at Piccadilly at something like 19:25, 19:55, 20:55 and 21:55, meaning the half-hourly service at Greenbank station would end at around 7pm. While worst case scenario would be arrivals at approx 19:00, 19:30, 20:00 and 21:00 meaning the half-hourly service at Altrincham station would end at around 7pm.

 

[jbg]

Not running a Northern service over the Ordsall Chord until December 2019 always seemed a little odd. Although hoping to run this through to Manchester Airport in May 2018 is interesting, with the politics involved with paths from Oxford Rd to the airport.

How long after it was laid, did take Northern to use the Todmorden curve?

 

[Ze Random One]

The performance of 319s on the Airport shuttles suggests either they are either slower to accelerate compared to 323s (as widely reported) or the process of opening/closing the doors is slower.

Taking Networkers and 319s over similar routes, my experience has been that the lower power to weight ratio of the 319 makes a big difference for stopping services.
I'm not surprised if they don't perform as well as a 323, since a 323 has a stupendous power:weight ratio.
1168kW:120t for a 323
1199kW:136t for a 465
990kW:140t for a 319

The introduction of 700s on the Thameslink suburban services means that the trains now seem to arrive 1 minute earlier at almost every station (and then have to wait time)

 

[markydh]

There's a small update in the latest North East Combined Authority papers regarding half-hourly Newcastle - Carlisle services. Apparently set to start in May 2018.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

How long after it was laid, did take Northern to use the Todmorden curve?

Your question could be said to be incomplete. Trackwork was complete by the end of 2013 and Northern services commenced in May 2015. However signalling works were not completed until February 2015 prior to which trains could only run in one direction so effectively there was only a 3 month gap between final completion and full service operation. In practice the delay was down to a shortage of rolling stock so there was nothing to be gained by Network Rail finishing everything any sooner. Remember that the financing for the curve came from regional regeneration funds and could only be applied to "public" projects so couldn't cover the cost of acquiring additional trains which are effectively privately owned. It was also worth doing the civils work "early" as resources would have been taken up by other projects (like the Ordsall chord) later on.

ETA Northern did in fact use the curve as a reversing siding allowing services from Manchester to reverse at Todmorden in advance of through services starting.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So does the TPE CLC service stay there till May 2018 when the Northern version takes over, and then moves to Victoria?
If the wires are late I would expect TPE 350s to continue via Golborne until they are ready (ie no 185 substitution via Bolton).

"Manchester-Preston 319s" isn't very specific.
Does that mean all Victoria/Hazel Grove/Airport services by Dec 2017, and extending to Blackpool May 2018?
What about Manchester-Crewe? Are they staying 323 or going over to 319s and extended north/west?

 

[WatcherZero]

Would presume its the Blackpool service which goes to 319 from Dec as they are cut short at Preston from November, however the Manchester-Bolton route will have raised linespeeds so should benefit diesels as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would presume its the Blackpool service which goes to 319 from Dec as they are cut short at Preston from November, however the Manchester-Bolton route will have raised linespeeds so should benefit diesels as well.

Not those (all but 185s?) which are limited to 75mph.

 

[WatcherZero]

158's can do 90.

 

[Ianno87]

158's can do 90.

You don't see them in Bolton very often (if at all) these days.

But 185s, 319s and 350s will be able to take advantage, as well as future Northern/TPE stock. 75mph stock will eventually be in the minority on the corridor.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

158's can do 90.

158's only appear on the Chorley route as part of maintenance inspired mileage balancing moves between the York-Blackpool and Man Vic-Leeds routes, generally one each way during the late evening.

 

[Starmill]

Is there funding for 90mph on the Bolton route now? I thought that was still an unknown? There isn't any 90 at present other than in the Farnworth tunnel?