Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[notlob.divad]

If my sums are right, Northern's franchise commitment is to operate 9 DMU services per hour into Victoria from the west, comprising 1tph from the Chord (Airport-Bradford Connect), 2tph from the Chat Moss (Chester-Leeds Connect and Liverpool-Leeds Connect), 4tph from the Atherton line (1tph Kirkby, 1tph Wigan Wallgate and 2tph Southport) and 2tph from the Bolton line (1tph Clitheroe via Blackburn, 1tph Blackburn). Of these, the three Connects and one of the Southport services must continue on the Calder Valley line through Hebden Bridge, the Connects to Bradford and the Southport presumably to Leeds via Brighouse. If the capacity of Vic to Rochdale is limited to 6tph per lejog's Post #99, the remaining 2tph must be the Blackburn via Todmorden and the Rochdale terminator.

As you say, it would be advantageous to use 90mph DMUs on the Bolton and Rochdale lines, implying a Clitheroe-Rochdale service and a Blackburn-Blackburn circular.

This would leave the three remaining Atherton line services terminating at Victoria, assuming that the 319flexes will provide the 2tph between Stalybridge and Wigan North Western via Bolton, until the lines are electrified.

Just one question, why is there a Wallgate terminator when the bay is at north western, and if it runs via Bolton it could potentially be an EMU

 

[notlob.divad]

Just one question, why is there a Wallgate terminator when the bay is at north western, and if it runs via Bolton it could potentially be an EMU

Edit: sorry 4tph via Atherton (non electric) my bad. Would still make sense to reverse at north western with the bay platforms

 

[Greybeard33]

If a slot between Castlefield Jn and Piccadilly can be found, one such service that is wished to be through to Manchester Airport can do so by running all-stations in place of the Airport shuttle.

I think that is going to happen anyway. The Northern franchise agreement requires only 4tph between the Airport and Piccadilly from Dec 2017 - the four will be to:

1. Blackpool North via Bolton (regional express)
2. Barrow or Windermere or Lancaster via Wigan (regional express)
3. Liverpool via Warrington Central (semi-fast)
4. Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows (all stations)

So no more Airport to Piccadilly shuttle, unless Northern chooses to exceed the franchise specification. And the Crewe to Piccadilly via Airport will be linked to the Liverpool stopper as notlob-divad said.

 

[Starmill]

The Liverpool -chat Moss service is supposed to be doing that, then carrying on at least to wilmslow if not Crewe all stops

That was my point - both could do it.

However I'm slightly concerned at the reliability of a Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street service making that large a number of stops.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That would mean that at least one of the Chorley line services would have to remain diesel until Victoria to Stalybridge electrification is complete (because Victoria will not have platform capacity to terminate services from the west). So further delaying the redeployment of diesel stock, originally promised for Dec 2017, to improve services on other Northern routes.

Class 319 Flex?

Agreed, which is why Wigan Council's Town Centre Plan envisages public realm improvements to integrate the two stations into one cohesive rail hub.

Ho, ho, ho! I've read that report and it's nothing but unfunded long-term aspirations. The emboldened statement above is the sum total of ideas for any improvements for North Western/Wallgate connections. Short of pedestrianising that stretch of Wallgate (totally impractical given the limitations of the local road network!) there is almost no scope for meaningful improvement.

The issue is electrification delays to stalybridge. Any EMU going east of Victoria will quickly grind to a halt once it leaves the station complex. The 319 flex project may be the solution to this, but there is nothing confirmed yet.

Someone else can see the potential for more flexible timetabling.

I read a comment on here a few months back that Northern want the Blackburn via Todmorden to run through to the Airport, via Ordsall Chord. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else, is there any truth in it?

If the above isn't correct then I guess the obvious solution will be to link the Blackburn via Todmorden with an Atherton line service, or run it as a 'loop service' as in Blackburn-Blackburn via Bolton, Manchester and Rochdale.

My bold. This happens some of the time already.

I guess an option might be to run terminating diesel trains ECS to Newton Heath to reverse, so as to clear the through platforms? Only a couple of miles and four-tracked most of the way.

Pretty sure trains only need to go as far as the loops at Brewery Junction for such reversals.

According to the Northern franchise agreement, Wavertree Technology Park is to have 4tph from Lime Street, versus 5tph now. They will be 2tph to Wigan, 1tph to Warrington and only 1tph to Manchester. That last will be all stations to Piccadilly and the Airport, then semi-fast to Crewe via Wilmslow.

Given the current level of use of the semi-fasts at Wavertree Tech Park I doubt the reduction will be noticed by many.

I think that is going to happen anyway. The Northern franchise agreement requires only 4tph between the Airport and Piccadilly from Dec 2017 - the four will be to:

1. Blackpool North via Bolton (regional express)
2. Barrow or Windermere or Lancaster via Wigan (regional express)
3. Liverpool via Warrington Central (semi-fast)
4. Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows (all stations)

So no more Airport to Piccadilly shuttle, unless Northern chooses to exceed the franchise specification. And the Crewe to Piccadilly via Airport will be linked to the Liverpool stopper as notlob-divad said.

There does appear to be a chance that intermediate stations on the Styal line are going to see a reduction in local journey opportunities if there will only be a single all-stops service each hour. Presumably frequency to/from Piccadillly/Airport will be maintained by more services making a single intermediate stop.

 

[Greybeard33]

Edit: sorry 4tph via Atherton (non electric) my bad. Would still make sense to reverse at north western with the bay platforms

Currently 2tph from Victoria terminate at Wallgate and none at North Western - they shunt into the Wallgate carriage sidings if a through train needs to pass. I assume the remaining diesel terminator will do the same, although the TSRs do not specify which Wigan station should be used.

It will be simpler for passengers if all the Atherton line trains continue to use Wallgate.

 

[Greybeard33]

There does appear to be a chance that intermediate stations on the Styal line are going to see a reduction in local journey opportunities if there will only be a single all-stops service each hour. Presumably frequency to/from Piccadillly/Airport will be maintained by more services making a single intermediate stop.

Northern is required to provide 3tph to/from Manchester at Heald Green and East Didsbury, and 2tph at Gatley, Burnage and Mauldeth Road. So the electric Blackpool service might have to be all stops in addition to Liverpool stopper, with the Cumbria and/or Liverpool diesel Connect services also making one or two stops. Or some other pattern of skip-stopping between these three services.

 

[northwichcat]

They will then need to find DMUs again for Preston-Blackpool for March-May 2018 before the electrics start.

I believe the intention is to use 3 x 319 Flexs on Liverpool to Blackpool services from March 2018 if the conversion project goes to plan.

 

[Philip]

I thought Northern didn't want to use 319s on the Crewe line because of their lower top speed and acceleration? The Liverpool stopper will most likely be a 319. Northern want to replace current 323 services with 331 services, so wouldn't this make it more likely for the Blackpool Northern Connect to be extended to Crewe?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought Northern didn't want to use 319s on the Crewe line because of their lower top speed and acceleration? The Liverpool stopper will most likely be a 319. Northern want to replace current 323 services with 331 services, so wouldn't this make it more likely for the Blackpool Northern Connect to be extended to Crewe?

I don't know if Crewe services running to Liverpool is true but Northern do plan to replace 323s with 319s on Glossop services as a temporary measure until 331s are available (subject to some TPE services being routed via the Ordsall Chord and a couple of platform extensions.) I thought the intention of that was to allow for extra Macclesfield services and for units to undergo examinations/PRM mods but maybe they have another reason.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that is going to happen anyway. The Northern franchise agreement requires only 4tph between the Airport and Piccadilly from Dec 2017 - the four will be to:

1. Blackpool North via Bolton (regional express)
2. Barrow or Windermere or Lancaster via Wigan (regional express)
3. Liverpool via Warrington Central (semi-fast)
4. Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows (all stations)

So no more Airport to Piccadilly shuttle
...
So the electric Blackpool service might have to be all stops in addition to Liverpool stopper

Presumably they based that on Blackpool services being electric. Does it need a rethink if Blackpool services will be slower accelerating DMUs which have to fit in between TPE services?

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought Northern didn't want to use 319s on the Crewe line because of their lower top speed and acceleration? The Liverpool stopper will most likely be a 319. Northern want to replace current 323 services with 331 services, so wouldn't this make it more likely for the Blackpool Northern Connect to be extended to Crewe?

Apart from the Northern services, the Wilmslow - Crewe line only has one hourly VTWC 390, one hourly ATW 175 and one hourly container train. The Airport to Crewe does not stop at Chelford or Goostrey, so has 9 miles non-stop between Alderley Edge and Holmes Chapel where a 319 should be able to wind up to its 100mph top speed. Might even beat the 90mph 323 timings?

Airport to Crewe is not billed as a Northern Connect Service.

 

[Greybeard33]

Presumably they based that on Blackpool services being electric. Does it need a rethink if Blackpool services will be slower accelerating DMUs which have to fit in between TPE services?

After Blackpool North reopens in March 2018, I presume Northern will continue running 319s Airport to Preston and Hazel Grove to Preston, with either a DMU shuttle or replacement buses between Preston and Blackpool North until the wiring is finished. It would be a PR disaster to revert back to diesel for a few weeks, just when people have got accustomed to electrics on the Bolton line. And where would they find enough DMUs? Presumably the 185s will be going back to TPE in December to enable their capacity improvements.

 

[Starmill]

Apart from the Northern services, the Wilmslow - Crewe line only has one hourly VTWC 390, one hourly ATW 175 and one hourly container train. The Airport to Crewe does not stop at Chelford or Goostrey, so has 9 miles non-stop between Alderley Edge and Holmes Chapel where a 319 should be able to wind up to its 100mph top speed. Might even beat the 90mph 323 timings?

Airport to Crewe is not billed as a Northern Connect Service.

That doesn't mean that it cannot use Connect rolling stock, although I agree that seems a less likely deployment of that rolling stock. A 319 is essentially unable to keep to the current 323 schedule on the Airport shuttle. I don't know how long it takes a 319 to reach 100mph (anyone who drives one like to have a guess?) but there's a possibility of saving maybe 1 to 1 1/2 minutes between Alderley Edge and Holmes Chapel by making it up to 100mph. I rather doubt that will make up for the rather inferior performance leaving the 4 intermediate stops between Manchester Airport and Crewe - 5 if calling at Styal.

 

[lejog]

I guess an option might be to run terminating diesel trains ECS to Newton Heath to reverse, so as to clear the through platforms? Only a couple of miles and four-tracked most of the way.

So creating 3/4 extra movements into and 3/4 movements out of Newton Heath per hour, each a possible conflict with passenger services passing every five minutes on the short section of two track line. Great.

I guess other options may be reopening a short length of the old Collyhurst line just a couple of hundred metres east of Victoria as a turning point, using the old west facing sidings near the old Oldham Rd junction, or using the crossovers between the lines at this point or crossovers further up the lines or indeed run trains through Philips Park to say Stockport.

Another problem is that one more service from the west would have to be terminated in a through platform at Victoria, instead of continuing through to Blackburn via Todmorden.

But on the whole until I hear of any of these options being adopted, I'll assume that reversing a few trains at Victoria is not actually a problem and that both Northern and timetable planners know their job.

 

[Moonshot]

So creating 3/4 extra movements into and 3/4 movements out of Newton Heath per hour, each a possible conflict with passenger services passing every five minutes on the short section of two track line. Great.

I guess other options may be reopening a short length of the old Collyhurst line just a couple of hundred metres east of Victoria as a turning point, using the old west facing sidings near the old Oldham Rd junction, or using the crossovers between the lines at this point or crossovers further up the lines or indeed run trains through Philips Park to say Stockport.



But on the whole until I hear of any of these options being adopted, I'll assume that reversing a few trains at Victoria is not actually a problem and that both Northern and timetable planners know their job.

we already do the above.....some trains come out of Vic as ECS and then turn back from the loop at Brewery Junction. Its not a major issue.

 

[lejog]

we already do the above.....some trains come out of Vic as ECS and then turn back from the loop at Brewery Junction. Its not a major issue.

Okay thanks.

My flippant response was aimed at those who seem to think ALL services from the west have to run through to Rochdale or Stalybridge, otherwise there is a "problem".

 

[northwichcat]

That doesn't mean that it cannot use Connect rolling stock

Indeed. It also needs to be remembered a Connect service doesn't just depend on the quality of the train, the enhanced facilities offered at the stations are part of the Connect offering.

I imagine all the 331s will have the same interior, whether they are used on commuter or Connect services.

 

[50032]

I thought Northern didn't want to use 319s on the Crewe line because of their lower top speed and acceleration? The Liverpool stopper will most likely be a 319. Northern want to replace current 323 services with 331 services, so wouldn't this make it more likely for the Blackpool Northern Connect to be extended to Crewe?

What's to say 323's won't be used on these Liverpool-Airport-Crewe services as an interim measure until new trains arrive?

 

[Starmill]

I think they're supposed to be leaving too soon? And I can't imagine the Liverpool crew sign them!

 

[notlob.divad]

The issue with a 319 is surely between Picadilly and Stockport. With the Airport <> Crewe service joining/leaving at Wilmslow then a 319 must surely be Ok. Is it not similar to the Wigan to Preston part of the WCML which they serve fine today.

 

[northwichcat]

I think they're supposed to be leaving too soon? And I can't imagine the Liverpool crew sign them!

323s go off lease on 1st Jan 2019. New CAF trains should start to be delivered from mid 2018.

 

[Greybeard33]

The issue with a 319 is surely between Picadilly and Stockport. With the Airport <> Crewe service joining/leaving at Wilmslow then a 319 must surely be Ok. Is it not similar to the Wigan to Preston part of the WCML which they serve fine today.

319s will surely be used between Piccadilly and Stockport on the Hazel Grove to Preston/Blackpool service. Their acceleration is better than the mix of 142s, 150s and 156s that they will be replace, and anyway the 4-track line enables overtaking. I guess they might also be used on the Alderley Edge via Stockport service. Although that is currently timed for 90mph 323s, a Sprinter often stands in when there are insufficient 323s available for service.

Where 319 performance would be problematic is on the 2-track Cheadle Hulme to Stoke line, where the stoppers have to fit in the gaps between 2tph VTWC Pendolinos and 2tph XC Voyagers. However, it appears that the Northern plan here is to replace the 323s by 331s.

 

[50032]

323s go off lease on 1st Jan 2019. New CAF trains should start to be delivered from mid 2018.

Although it would mean plenty of crew training, I wouldn't be surprised to see 323's on some new routes before they go off lease.

 

[Greybeard33]

Although it would mean plenty of crew training, I wouldn't be surprised to see 323's on some new routes before they go off lease.

I wonder if 6-car 323s might temporarily take over those Manchester Airport to Blackpool North diagrams that are still operated by 6-car 185s between the Airport and Preston? A 4-car 319 would be a reduction in capacity, but an 8-car 319 would not fit into the Oxford Road platforms.

I understand TPE used SDO at Oxford Road when it temporarily operated 8-car 350s to Glasgow during the Commonwealth Games, but 319s do not have SDO.

 

[Bungle965]

I wonder if 6-car 323s might temporarily take over those Manchester Airport to Blackpool North diagrams that are still operated by 6-car 185s between the Airport and Preston? A 4-car 319 would be a reduction in capacity, but an 8-car 319 would not fit into the Oxford Road platforms.

I understand TPE used SDO at Oxford Road when it temporarily operated 8-car 350s to Glasgow during the Commonwealth Games, but 319s do not have SDO.

TPE still do regularly operate 8 car 350s that call at Manchester Oxford Road
I also don`t think that 350s have SDO as such, however I am willing to be corrected on that point.
Sam

 

[Bevan Price]

319s will surely be used between Piccadilly and Stockport on the Hazel Grove to Preston/Blackpool service. Their acceleration is better than the mix of 142s, 150s and 156s that they will be replace,
.

It is not quite that simple. Up to about 30 mph, the acceleration of 319s is slower than that of 150, 156 or 142, but once they reach 30 - 40 mph, they can outpace any of the 14x or 15x dmus.

I have a diagram of typical acceleration curves of 319 v. 156 that I upload here.

 

[Greybeard33]

It is not quite that simple. Up to about 30 mph, the acceleration of 319s is slower than that of 150, 156 or 142, but once they reach 30 - 40 mph, they can outpace any of the 14x or 15x dmus.

I have a diagram of typical acceleration curves of 319 v. 156 that I upload here.

Thanks for that. It would be interesting to plot curves of distance against time, to see how widely spaced the stops have to be for the 319 to be quicker. On the Hazel Grove - Preston route, the DMUs manage to get up to well over 30mph between most of the stations, so I still think the 319s will better the Sprinter timings overall.

Acceleration does, of course, depend on passenger loading. My impression as a passenger is that a crush-loaded 142 (as they often are on Northern services!) really struggles to get going from a stand, particularly uphill, and is considerably more sluggish than a crush-loaded 150 or 156. The lightweight Pacer bodyshell means that that the gross weight varies proportionately more with passenger load than does that of the heavier Sprinters.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks for that. It would be interesting to plot curves of distance against time, to see how widely spaced the stops have to be for the 319 to be quicker. On the Hazel Grove - Preston route, the DMUs manage to get up to well over 30mph between most of the stations, so I still think the 319s will better the Sprinter timings overall.

.

On my local Liverpool - Wigan & Manchester lines, I think that 319s are able to beat 14x or 15x dmu times for any station to station distance greater than about 1.5 to 2 miles. Of course you sometimes get slow starts & stops with both types of traction, especially in poor weather conditions.

 

[Starmill]

The comparison of a 319 with a 142 or a sprinter does not particularly gain us anything. The problem will be with Cheadle Hulme to Crewe / Stoke-on-Trent. The xx04 service from Manchester to Crewe arrives just 5 minutes ahead of the xx30 ATW and the Stoke-on-Trent just 5 minutes ahead of the XC to the South West.

If a 319 is a suitable replacement, why have they fared so poorly on Airport shuttles?