Northern December 2017 Timetable Stakeholder consultation

[lejog]

If this is the case why have the Northern 'South Manchester' group improvements been deferred? I understand there may not be enough DMUs for the extra services to Greenbank and New Mills Newton but why can't the extra Macclesfield and Hazel Grove services run and the peak time extra Mid-Cheshire services run to Piccadilly (which won't need extra DMUs)?

Not really something I know about, but with the Airport-York TPE service still crossing the throat, is there capacity at Piccadilly?

 

[Greybeard33]

Again please look at the ORR document. It appears that the Liverpool-Scarborough service being diverted frees up a path through Castlefield for a TPE Chord service. Looking at both the Northern and TPE documents together, there seem to be no extra paths through Castlefield in December.

The Northern franchise agreement envisaged the hourly Airport to Lancaster/Barrow/Windermere via Chat Moss service and the second hourly Bolton to Levenshulme/Heaton Chapel service both starting in Dec 2017, which would have needed two additional paths through Oxford Road and Piccadilly in advance of the remodelling/additional platforms. Only the Bradford to Airport service was scheduled to start in Dec 2019 (when it was assumed the Oxford Road/Picc upgrades would be complete).

If the Calder Valley to Airport service is being brought forward to May 2018, perhaps that is taking the path of the Cumbria to Airport? And/or might the ATW N Wales to Airport be diverted to Victoria?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It appears that there will continue to be terminators from the west at Victoria, even when all the new services are introduced. There will be a total of 12tph from the east (4TPE, 2 Stalybridge, 3 Bradford, 1 Brighouse, 1 Blackburn and 1 Rochdale). All of these will run through the station, but in theory could be accommodated on a pair of platforms - Victoria's theoretical capacity will be 24/30tph if all trains ran through.

They'll have to buck their ideas up then.
They struggle with 7/8tph at the moment (3 run through, but some with long stops).
Reversing EMUs to the west will consume a lot of paths, especially if they have to park somewhere like the Liverpool stopper does.
At least they will all (initially) be 319s so can step up.

 

[Philip]

Is the new half-hourly Bolton-Stockport service likely to include the current all-stops Blackpool-Victoria service (being diverted to Piccadilly)? Space is obviously going to be tight at Victoria, the less terminators the better and this one is surely one that could make way.

Why can't more services from the west terminate in the bay platforms at Stalybridge and Rochdale?

 

[notlob.divad]

The issue is electrification delays to stalybridge. Any EMU going east of Victoria will quickly grind to a halt once it leaves the station complex. The 319 flex project may be the solution to this, but there is nothing confirmed yet.

 

[northwichcat]

Not really something I know about, but with the Airport-York TPE service still crossing the throat, is there capacity at Piccadilly?

There should be 4 additional hourly services as a result of the TPE changes. I would have thought 3 of them would be possible even with one North TPE service reversing at Piccadilly.

 

[lejog]

Why can't more services from the west terminate in the bay platforms at Stalybridge and Rochdale?

The Calder Valley line will already have 6 planned passenger services per hour from Rochdale, freight paths, paths to Newton Heath, TPE diversions etc. Also since December we have had 90mph services from Rochdale to Manchester.

Do you think there is capacity for more than the planned 1tph Rochdale terminator, especially if the services from the west are 70mph DMUs? It appears that Network Rail doesn't.

 

[Philip]

The Calder Valley line will already have 6 planned passenger services per hour from Rochdale, freight paths, paths to Newton Heath, TPE diversions etc. Also since December we have had 90mph services from Rochdale to Manchester.

Do you think there is capacity for more than the planned 1tph Rochdale terminator, especially if the services from the west are 70mph DMUs? It appears that Network Rail doesn't.

If the signalling allows for it then yes. The Bolton line will soon have an eight per hour frequency with EMUs running 90-100 mph, but there will still be at least an hourly Blackburn DMU likely to be a 75mph Sprinter.

If a fast train leaves Victoria every 10 minutes for Rochdale then you could have up to six non-stopping trains per hour. The stoppers could then go ahead of the 75mph DMU services.

And there's no reason why DMU services from the Atherton line or from Blackburn couldn't terminate at Stalybridge, rather than clogging up Victoria.

 

[lejog]

Well apart from the fact that the Franchise agreement only specifies 1tph Rochdale terminator, this is what was said in the Network Rail press release in December.


https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/first-phase-of-calder-valley-upgrade-completed-on-time-and-under-budget/

Liam Sumpter, Regional Director at Northern said: “The new platform at Rochdale is vital to the service improvements we want to provide for our customers in the area.

“The flexibility the development will provide, alongside other ongoing projects, will eventually allow us to run six trains per hour between Rochdale and Manchester.

There will be around 16/17 trains from the west into Victoria, 12 running through to east. This is some way short of the 24/30 tph through capacity of the station, so some terminators can be handled there. It appears there are no plans at present to increase capacity of the two lines running east of the station to handle more than the planned level of through trains.

 

[northwichcat]

There are inconsistencies between the TPE SA and the Northern Stakeholder Consultation. When the TPE Liverpool-Scarborough service moves to the Chat Moss, the Northern Liverpool-Airport semi-fast must move to the CLC at same time to replace it (and become diesel). Probably the Chat Moss stopper also needs to swap from Victoria to Piccadilly concurrently, with the Southport semi-fast going to Victoria instead. Yet the Northern document does not mention any of these changes occurring in Dec 2017.

The TPE changes do not include the North TPE semi-fasts, so the Northern Vic to Huddersfield stopper will have to continue at least until May 2018. I guess this might mean that there is not a Vic to Stalybridge path available for the Airport-York/Newcastle service to shift to the Chord.

Northern don't really need to consult on implementing the changes they are required to in the franchise specification but they should be consulting on any changes to them e.g. if the bringing forward of the Bradford to Manchester Airport service will see the Bradford to Chester service put back then they should consult on both.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern don't really need to consult on implementing the changes they are required to in the franchise specification but they should be consulting on any changes to them e.g. if the bringing forward of the Bradford to Manchester Airport service will see the Bradford to Chester service put back then they should consult on both.

Maybe Northern does not need to consult on the required changes, but the "December 2017 changes - a summary" section of the consultation document reads as though it is a summary of all the changes, i.e. anything not mentioned is postponed at least until May 2018. 1tph Bishop Auckland - Darlington, 2tph Sheffield - Worksop - Retford and 4tph Leeds - Harrogate are all changes required by the franchise agreement, but are listed explicitly. As you said in Post #4 of this thread, the West Yorks - Oxford Road via Ordsall Chord service is the only one that exceeds the franchise commitments.

 

[Philip]

Well apart from the fact that the Franchise agreement only specifies 1tph Rochdale terminator, this is what was said in the Network Rail press release in December.


https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/first-phase-of-calder-valley-upgrade-completed-on-time-and-under-budget/



There will be around 16/17 trains from the west into Victoria, 12 running through to east. This is some way short of the 24/30 tph through capacity of the station, so some terminators can be handled there. It appears there are no plans at present to increase capacity of the two lines running east of the station to handle more than the planned level of through trains.

I read a comment on here a few months back that Northern want the Blackburn via Todmorden to run through to the Airport, via Ordsall Chord. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else, is there any truth in it?

If the above isn't correct then I guess the obvious solution will be to link the Blackburn via Todmorden with an Atherton line service, or run it as a 'loop service' as in Blackburn-Blackburn via Bolton, Manchester and Rochdale.

 

[Starmill]

There are inconsistencies between the TPE SA and the Northern Stakeholder Consultation. When the TPE Liverpool-Scarborough service moves to the Chat Moss, the Northern Liverpool-Airport semi-fast must move to the CLC at same time to replace it (and become diesel). Probably the Chat Moss stopper also needs to swap from Victoria to Piccadilly concurrently, with the Southport semi-fast going to Victoria instead. Yet the Northern document does not mention any of these changes occurring in Dec 2017.

The TPE changes do not include the North TPE semi-fasts, so the Northern Vic to Huddersfield stopper will have to continue at least until May 2018. I guess this might mean that there is not a Vic to Stalybridge path available for the Airport-York/Newcastle service to shift to the Chord.

Oh. So you think the Manchester Airport <> Liverpool Lime Street will no longer run via Newton-le-Willows when it goes to replace the TransPennine via Warrington Central? Assuming the second TransPennine Chat Moss train only calls at Newton-le-Willows as previously advertised, doesn't this represent a bit of a cut in service for St Helens Junction and Wavertree Technology Park?

 

[northwichcat]

Oh. So you think the Manchester Airport <> Liverpool Lime Street will no longer run via Newton-le-Willows when it goes to replace the TransPennine via Warrington Central? Assuming the second TransPennine Chat Moss train only calls at Newton-le-Willows as previously advertised, doesn't this represent a bit of a cut in service for St Helens Junction and Wavertree Technology Park?

Previously advertised by who? Newton-le-Willows was supposed to be served by the Chester to Calder Valley service instead, while St Helens Junction will be served by TPE.

I'm not sure about Wavertree Technology Park. Were any Wigan to Liverpool enhancements included?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh. So you think the Manchester Airport <> Liverpool Lime Street will no longer run via Newton-le-Willows when it goes to replace the TransPennine via Warrington Central? Assuming the second TransPennine Chat Moss train only calls at Newton-le-Willows as previously advertised, doesn't this represent a bit of a cut in service for St Helens Junction and Wavertree Technology Park?

I think it is replaced but the airport is no longer the destination.

 

[Greybeard33]

Well apart from the fact that the Franchise agreement only specifies 1tph Rochdale terminator, this is what was said in the Network Rail press release in December.


https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/first-phase-of-calder-valley-upgrade-completed-on-time-and-under-budget/

There will be around 16/17 trains from the west into Victoria, 12 running through to east. This is some way short of the 24/30 tph through capacity of the station, so some terminators can be handled there. It appears there are no plans at present to increase capacity of the two lines running east of the station to handle more than the planned level of through trains.

I guess an option might be to run terminating diesel trains ECS to Newton Heath to reverse, so as to clear the through platforms? Only a couple of miles and four-tracked most of the way.

 

[Starmill]

Previously advertised by who? Newton-le-Willows was supposed to be served by the Chester to Calder Valley service instead, while St Helens Junction will be served by TPE.

I'm not sure about Wavertree Technology Park. Were any Wigan to Liverpool enhancements included?

I can't remember. I ceratinly haven't heard of them calling at St Helens Jn. And as the Chester service does not go to Liverpool I don't see how that helps! Surely Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool will not go down to one train an hour calling at all stations!?

 

[northwichcat]

I can't remember. I ceratinly haven't heard of them calling at St Helens Jn. And as the Chester service does not go to Liverpool I don't see how that helps! Surely Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool will not go down to one train an hour calling at all stations!?

TPE mentioned serving St Helens in their new franchise press release which was misleading as they meant North TPE services calling at St Helens Junction not Glasgow services calling at St Helens Central. It is confirmed in the franchise spec and their track access application (the link to which is earlier in the thread) that they will stop Liverpool to Scarborough services at St Helens Junction.

Northern will run 2tph between Liverpool and Manchester on Chat Moss but the Victoria service will become a fast 'Northern Connect' service and the stopper will go to Piccadilly and the Airport. I don't know the expected start date and calling pattern of the Northern Connect service. However, the Chester to Calder Valley service was definitely supposed to start at the same time at the same time as TPE started running a second service on Chat Moss so that should have retained the same level of service between Newton-le-Willows and both Victoria and Piccadilly.

 

[Greybeard33]

Previously advertised by who? Newton-le-Willows was supposed to be served by the Chester to Calder Valley service instead, while St Helens Junction will be served by TPE.

I'm not sure about Wavertree Technology Park. Were any Wigan to Liverpool enhancements included?

According to the TPE franchise agreement, TPE is required to provide 1tph at each of Newton-le-Willows and St Helens Junction from Dec 2017, and the TPE website advertises SHJ as a new destination. The TPE Supplementary Access agreement says that the Liverpool to Scarborough will call at both NLW and SHJ, while the Liverpool to Newcastle will remain non-stop between Lime Street and Victoria.

According to the Northern franchise agreement, Wavertree Technology Park is to have 4tph from Lime Street, versus 5tph now. They will be 2tph to Wigan, 1tph to Warrington and only 1tph to Manchester. That last will be all stations to Piccadilly and the Airport, then semi-fast to Crewe via Wilmslow.

On the other hand, Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington West, Warrington Central and Birchwood are all to get a direct service to the Manchester Airport for the first time.

 

[Philip]

I'm gonna assume that what I read a while back about direct trains between Blackburn and Manchester Airport is untrue. It doesn't make sense anyway since changing at any of Bolton, Salford or Victoria would be much quicker.

Having read that Manchester to Rochdale is now 90mph and also that Northern plan to use 158s on the Clitheroe service, perhaps in theory this could indicate the Rochdale terminator will be from Clitheroe. It'd also make sense to include a direct link between Rochdale and Bolton in the Northern Hub plan, since Wigan (and the Atherton line) will already have one in the form of the Southport-Leeds service.

 

[Philip]

I think Northern's Northern Connect map may be erroneous in showing a Liverpool to Leeds via Chat Moss service. It is not in the list of Connect services on their website and no such service is required by the Northern franchise agreement, only the 1tph stopper between Lime Street and Manchester via the Chat Moss.

The Liverpool-Bradford service will run via Chat Moss and at least some of these trains will likely be extended to Leeds.

 

[northwichcat]

I think Northern's Northern Connect map may be erroneous in showing a Liverpool to Leeds via Chat Moss service. It is not in the list of Connect services on their website and no such service is required by the Northern franchise agreement, only the 1tph stopper between Lime Street and Manchester via the Chat Moss.

Liverpool to Bradford is required though, whether they run it through to Leeds remains to be seen.

(xi) between Liverpool and Bradford Interchange 12 trains per day in each direction (Monday to Saturday);
(b(x) – b(xi) together referred to as “Stage Three Northern Connect Passenger Services”);

 

[Greybeard33]

The Liverpool-Bradford service will run via Chat Moss and at least some of these trains will likely be extended to Leeds.

Liverpool to Bradford is required though, whether they run it through to Leeds remains to be seen.

Yes, my mistake - Leeds to Liverpool is listed on the Northern website. The franchise agreement TSRs are difficult to interpret because the tables do not specify the end-to-end service between Lime Street and Manchester - only between Lime Street and Newton-le-Willows (1tph) and between Manchester and Earlestown (1tph). But there is an additional verbal requirement in the Leeds to Manchester tables for the 12 services daily from Bradford to Liverpool, calling at Huyton (though no requirement for the eastbound services!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's going to be an interesting timetable change.
Northern has a short period when it won't be operating Preston-Blackpool services (from mid-Nov).
That will at least give them a slight breather to shuffle the DMU fleet for whatever awaits in December.
Even then, the completion of Manchester-Preston electrification is critical to the cascades.
They will then need to find DMUs again for Preston-Blackpool for March-May 2018 before the electrics start.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm gonna assume that what I read a while back about direct trains between Blackburn and Manchester Airport is untrue. It doesn't make sense anyway since changing at any of Bolton, Salford or Victoria would be much quicker.

Having read that Manchester to Rochdale is now 90mph and also that Northern plan to use 158s on the Clitheroe service, perhaps in theory this could indicate the Rochdale terminator will be from Clitheroe. It'd also make sense to include a direct link between Rochdale and Bolton in the Northern Hub plan, since Wigan (and the Atherton line) will already have one in the form of the Southport-Leeds service.

If my sums are right, Northern's franchise commitment is to operate 9 DMU services per hour into Victoria from the west, comprising 1tph from the Chord (Airport-Bradford Connect), 2tph from the Chat Moss (Chester-Leeds Connect and Liverpool-Leeds Connect), 4tph from the Atherton line (1tph Kirkby, 1tph Wigan Wallgate and 2tph Southport) and 2tph from the Bolton line (1tph Clitheroe via Blackburn, 1tph Blackburn). Of these, the three Connects and one of the Southport services must continue on the Calder Valley line through Hebden Bridge, the Connects to Bradford and the Southport presumably to Leeds via Brighouse. If the capacity of Vic to Rochdale is limited to 6tph per lejog's Post #99, the remaining 2tph must be the Blackburn via Todmorden and the Rochdale terminator.

As you say, it would be advantageous to use 90mph DMUs on the Bolton and Rochdale lines, implying a Clitheroe-Rochdale service and a Blackburn-Blackburn circular.

This would leave the three remaining Atherton line services terminating at Victoria, assuming that the 319flexes will provide the 2tph between Stalybridge and Wigan North Western via Bolton, until the lines are electrified.

 

[lejog]

I'm gonna assume that what I read a while back about direct trains between Blackburn and Manchester Airport is untrue.

Its not untrue.

Northern Franchise Agreement

“Manchester Airport Proposal” means the proposal of the Franchisee to amend the Train Service Requirement by extending Todmorden Curve Services in both directions from Manchester Stations to Manchester Airport;

Northern will have by now submitted a detailed feasibility study in support of their proposal. The results are obviously not publicly available.

It doesn't make sense anyway since changing at any of Bolton, Salford or Victoria would be much quicker.

What about passengers from Accrington, Burnley and the stations between Todmorden and Victoria, not served by the Northern Connect Bradford service? Let alone providing a 4th tph between Victoria and Piccadilly?

Capacity south of the chord is the obvious problem, but that will apply to any proposal to use the empty fourth path over the Ordsall Chord.

 

[Greybeard33]

Its not untrue.

Northern Franchise Agreement



Northern will have by now submitted a detailed feasibility study in support of their proposal. The results are obviously not publicly available.



What about passengers from Accrington, Burnley and the stations between Todmorden and Victoria, not served by the Northern Connect Bradford service? Let alone providing a 4th tph between Victoria and Piccadilly?

Capacity south of the chord is the obvious problem, but that will apply to any proposal to use the empty fourth path over the Ordsall Chord.

Another problem is that one more service from the west would have to be terminated in a through platform at Victoria, instead of continuing through to Blackburn via Todmorden.

 

[Philip]

Its not untrue.

Northern Franchise Agreement



Northern will have by now submitted a detailed feasibility study in support of their proposal. The results are obviously not publicly available.



What about passengers from Accrington, Burnley and the stations between Todmorden and Victoria, not served by the Northern Connect Bradford service? Let alone providing a 4th tph between Victoria and Piccadilly?

Capacity south of the chord is the obvious problem, but that will apply to any proposal to use the empty fourth path over the Ordsall Chord.

It's back to the old line of why does every town in the north west need a direct link to Manchester Airport. It may be what they want, but then Southport council and user groups along the Southport line also want their Airport service reinstated, ATW want an hourly Chester-Airport service. If the capacity isn't there, it isn't there.

Of the three I've mentioned, if they manage to find an extra path somehow, surely the Chester service will be given priority?

I think the wisest thing to do would be to look at ways of reducing the number of Victoria terminators from the west. If you can get rid of at least one by linking it to the Blackburn via Todmorden then that for me is the way to go. On paper Victoria may be able to handle the number of turn backs you've stated, but in practise I think it'll be like walking the tightrope...any delays and it'll all go boobs up.

 

[Starmill]

If a slot between Castlefield Jn and Piccadilly can be found, one such service that is wished to be through to Manchester Airport can do so by running all-stations in place of the Airport shuttle.

 

[notlob.divad]

If a slot between Castlefield Jn and Piccadilly can be found, one such service that is wished to be through to Manchester Airport can do so by running all-stations in place of the Airport shuttle.

The Liverpool -chat Moss service is supposed to be doing that, then carrying on at least to wilmslow if not Crewe all stops