Northern Connect - Chester to Leeds

[northwichcat]

...however I'd not seen that the Lincoln - Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service was also being extended to Bradford (along with the Nottingham - Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds service) - when was that announced?

My mistake it was just the Sheffield-Leeds services from Nottingham which is being extended to Bradford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(Chester appeared a little later)

Chester to Calder Vale was one of 2+ options put forward, with Chester to Sheffield also having been forward as an option and prior to North TPE electrification being announced I think Chester to Hull was a third option put forward.

 

[lejog]

I agree with your logic.

If the plan is to give Bradford some "fast" services to Manchester (as there's no point in running the "via Dewsbury" services as fast through the Calder Valley, since Dewsbury will have significantly faster services via Huddersfield)...

...and we know that the "fast" services will run to Liverpool and the Airport...

...then it seems reasonable that the Calder Valley services *not* running to Liverpool/ Airport will be slower...

...in which case the Chester service ought to be a slow one. Makes sense to me.

The only way any of the Northern Connect services are going to be faster/slower than the others, is that one will have to call at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge to maintain 2tph there. This is the case with one of the 2 current tph.

The franchise maps make it clear that new services will call at Hebden Bridge and Todmorden, just as existing services do. I don't really see them running fast through Rochdale.

The capacity upgrades for the line (improved headways, 3rd platforms at Rochdale and Halifax, extra capacity at Bradford and Leeds) will support the increase in services, but running any sevices faster between Halifax and Manchester would require extra extra passing points and delays to other services.

...however I'd not seen that the Lincoln - Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service was also being extended to Bradford (along with the Nottingham - Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds service) - when was that announced?

Is this in addition to the Leeds - Halifax terminator? That's going to mean even more reversals at Leeds (esp given that the Wakefield Kirkgate line is on the southern extreme of the throat).

Nor had I, a Bradford to Hull service was mentioned in the DfT press release, but if this ever runs wouldn't require reversals at Leeds.

 

[43074]

Without knowing exact seating numbers, wouldn't 3 car 170s represent a loss in capacity compared with the 4 car units currently used in rush hours?

A 3-car 170 or 158 could certainly replace a pair of 2-car Pacers whilst offering a similar amount of capacity (roughly 180 seats on a 4-car Pacer depending on layout, 200 for a ScotRail 170), if a pair of 2-car 158s, 150s or 155s were replaced by a 3-car Turbostar there would be a reduction in capacity (anything from 250-300 seats to 200 for a Turbostar).

However, a 3-car 165 or 166 would have more capacity than any pair of 150s or 158s (I seem to remember 165s and 166s were listed as being acceptable rolling stock in the ITT?).

 

[northwichcat]

A 3-car 170 or 158 could certainly replace a pair of 2-car Pacers whilst offering a similar amount of capacity (roughly 180 seats on a 4-car Pacer depending on layout, 200 for a ScotRail 170), if a pair of 2-car 158s, 150s or 155s were replaced by a 3-car Turbostar there would be a reduction in capacity (anything from 250-300 seats to 200 for a Turbostar).

Northern 142s have 106 to 121 seats per set so a doubled up 142 would provide 212 to 242 seats. However, note at peak times on Calder Vale there are 5 car Pacer formations booked.

However, a 3-car 165 or 166 would have more capacity than any pair of 150s or 158s (I seem to remember 165s and 166s were listed as being acceptable rolling stock in the ITT?).

No for DMUs only stock permitted was those in the current Northern fleet, new build and cascaded 15xs and 17xs with an exception of a temporary loan of 185s from TPE.

TPE on the other hand were allowed to take on anything except 15xs and 17xs, so 16xs would have been permitted.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Any particular reason why? There may be some point in a Bradford-Halifax fast to Manchester service, but a Dewsbury-Brighouse fast to Manchester service would be very strange - Dewsbury already has TPE services and why on earth run a train fast to Manchester from a small West Yorkshire town like Brighouse (350k passengers a year)?

Brighouse acts as a hub for Cleckheaton, Elland, Greetland, Rastrick, Clifton and Bailliff Bridge, so a semi fast to either Southport, Chester or both would be very welcome.

During engineering works TPE also stop at Brighouse so that any Huddersfield and Kirklees passengers can change. Shame that TPE didn't axe the Huddersfield calls (except the York's and Hulls) and replaced them with calls at Brighouse instead - faster route, faster times and a much needed improvement to the town who gained their station back on the 28th May 2000. Roll on the nine trains an hour.

 

[mythrail]

Services via Dewsbury and Brighouse are being increasingly used by inbound commuters to the growing business parks around Mytholmroyd (and Sowerby Bridge).
A good example of an innovative rail service creating a market - and an opportunity for business to expand their employee catchment areas.

 

[xtradj]

Warrington will be ok

However I find it strange that Liverpool SP will now lose its Yorkshire service

 

[jayah]

A 3-car 170 or 158 could certainly replace a pair of 2-car Pacers whilst offering a similar amount of capacity (roughly 180 seats on a 4-car Pacer depending on layout, 200 for a ScotRail 170), if a pair of 2-car 158s, 150s or 155s were replaced by a 3-car Turbostar there would be a reduction in capacity (anything from 250-300 seats to 200 for a Turbostar).

However, a 3-car 165 or 166 would have more capacity than any pair of 150s or 158s (I seem to remember 165s and 166s were listed as being acceptable rolling stock in the ITT?).

I would think 165s would have major gauging issues in Northern territory, as they were built for the former broad gauge clearances on the GWR. That is if there will even be any spare, if and when Great Western electrification ever gets anywhere...

 

[Andyh82]

Brighouse acts as a hub for Cleckheaton, Elland, Greetland, Rastrick, Clifton and Bailliff Bridge, so a semi fast to either Southport, Chester or both would be very welcome.

During engineering works TPE also stop at Brighouse so that any Huddersfield and Kirklees passengers can change. Shame that TPE didn't axe the Huddersfield calls (except the York's and Hulls) and replaced them with calls at Brighouse instead - faster route, faster times and a much needed improvement to the town who gained their station back on the 28th May 2000. Roll on the nine trains an hour.

Although the idea of a fast service on the via Brighouse route would seem unrealistic and over the top, I would like to see some calls dropped, rather than it literally being all shacks.

My main annoyance is having to call at Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston, ideally no services that run east of Todmorden would call at these.

It's often a balancing act, do you have a range of semi fasts, where everyone gets a similar journey time, or a fast and an all stopper, with those lumbered with the stopper having a much longer journey.

 

[185102]

16x cleared on the hull - bridlington route or used to be as they were tested along there also could the chester - leeds service be a bridlington/hull-chester service?

 

[northwichcat]

16x cleared on the hull - bridlington route or used to be as they were tested along there also could the chester - leeds service be a bridlington/hull-chester service?

165s and 166s aren't set to join Northern or TPE. 168s are practically 170s with different couplers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However I find it strange that Liverpool SP will now lose its Yorkshire service

It will keep it's Sheffield service, Sheffield was in Yorkshire the last time I checked.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...
During engineering works TPE also stop at Brighouse so that any Huddersfield and Kirklees passengers can change. Shame that TPE didn't axe the Huddersfield calls (except the York's and Hulls) and replaced them with calls at Brighouse instead - faster route, faster times and a much needed improvement to the town who gained their station back on the 28th May 2000. Roll on the nine trains an hour.

Really? Firstly Huddersfield is a huge market for TPE with inbound and outbound commuters, why would they skip that stop? Secondly in which parallel universe is the Calder Valley a faster route than Standedge? The only way it could ever be faster would be to withdraw all the stoppers!

Every so often someone will suggest that TPE should run non-stop Leeds to Manchester services (usually with hauled 442s!) and I can only assume these people haven't been at Huddersfield station during rush hour (or they've spent too long in the vestibule of a Voyager!). Not to mention that the time saved by omitting Huddersfield would be negligible especially Eastbound due to low linespeed past platform 8.

 

[xtradj]

165s and 166s aren't set to join Northern or TPE. 168s are practically 170s with different couplers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It will keep it's Sheffield service, Sheffield was in Yorkshire the last time I checked.

Yes it keeps it emt service but will now lose its service to Leeds York etc. :roll:

 

[The Prisoner]

Speaking as someone living in Chester I am pretty amazed at how limited "direct" options are from here, so the reinstatement of any service east of Manchester is hugely welcome. With tourism, the races, connections on to Wales etc there seems untapped potential, and I remember the city and North Wales coast being part of the "old" transpennine network back in the day with direct services to the likes of Newcastle, York etc

To counter that if the service to Leeds is going to take any longer than 2 hours there isn't really a huge point. You can change @ Piccadilly and be there in 2 hours already and it rarely takes longer than 80 minutes to drive as it is motorway the entire way.

Any guesses on the end to end journey time? Victoria to Leeds via the Caldy Valley seems to take 82 minutes (fast) and typically it is 66 minutes from Chester to Piccadilly, so we are looking at the best part of 2 and a half hours for an 83 mile journey...pretty much twice the time it takes to drive.

I'm sure it serves lots of intermediate purposes, but if it does end up being in the region of a 2 and a half hour end to end journey it ends up being nothing more than a glorified regional stopper and not really any form of North West to West Yorkshire "connect".

 

[absolutelymilk]

Any guesses on the end to end journey time? Victoria to Leeds via the Caldy Valley seems to take 82 minutes (fast) and typically it is 66 minutes from Chester to Piccadilly, so we are looking at the best part of 2 and a half hours for an 83 mile journey...pretty much twice the time it takes to drive.

Agreed in general, but it should be shorter from Chester to Manchester as it only stops at Warrington Bank Quay, I would guess around 40 minutes for that part.

 

[The Prisoner]

Agreed in general, but it should be shorter from Chester to Manchester as it only stops at Warrington Bank Quay, I would guess around 40 minutes for that part.

I can't believe they will miss Runcorn East out & I understand it also has to call at Newton-le-Willows. Frodsham would also be understandable.

Anyone take a guess at a Chester - Frodsham - Runcorn East - Warrington Bank Quay - Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Todmorden - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford Interchange - New Pudsey - Leeds timing?

Chester - Piccadilly currently 66 mins, so let's say 57 for that (omitting Helsby, Earlestown & Man Oxford Road @ 3 mins each) plus we know 82 mins for the second part...maybe miss Bramley out to get it down to 79? I get that to 136 minutes for 80 odd miles.

Either way it is slower than changing @ Piccadilly currently and the best part of an hour longer than driving.

Just think it is defeating the object of a regional "connect" service for it to be so slow...to have any benefits at all in terms of getting people out of their car and traveling for business or pleasure en masse from Cheshire to West Yorkshire and vv it needs to run via Huddersfield where a 106 minute journey would be possible calling at Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington BQ, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Ox Road and Picc, Huddersfield & Leeds (that is the timings above CTR-MAN plus quickest TPE MAN-Leeds).

 

[northwichcat]

I can't believe they will miss Runcorn East out & I understand it also has to call at Newton-le-Willows. Frodsham would also be understandable.

Anyone take a guess at a Chester - Frodsham - Runcorn East - Warrington Bank Quay - Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Todmorden - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford Interchange - New Pudsey - Leeds timing?

Chester - Piccadilly currently 66 mins, so let's say 57 for that (omitting Helsby, Earlestown & Man Oxford Road @ 3 mins each) plus we know 82 mins for the second part...maybe miss Bramley out to get it down to 79? I get that to 136 minutes for 80 odd miles.

Either way it is slower than changing @ Piccadilly currently and the best part of an hour longer than driving.

Just think it is defeating the object of a regional "connect" service for it to be so slow...to have any benefits at all in terms of getting people out of their car and traveling for business or pleasure en masse from Cheshire to West Yorkshire and vv it needs to run via Huddersfield where a 106 minute journey would be possible calling at Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington BQ, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Ox Road and Picc, Huddersfield & Leeds (that is the timings above CTR-MAN plus quickest TPE MAN-Leeds).

The ITT set out the minimum number of services from each station, that doesn't mean it's the number Arriva will provide. On the Mid-Cheshire line they will run the second service from Greenbank to Manchester, not Northwich to Manchester as specified and all services will call at Hale which isn't required so there's two decisions which Arriva have made which they weren't required to, so they may have made similar decisions for other routes as well.

Northern Connect will be like Central Citylink was opposed a real express operation.

 

[Class 170101]

Would there be any real time savings by missing out Manchester Oxford Road? My memory says to me it was quite slow around there anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

Would there be any real time savings by missing out Manchester Oxford Road? My memory says to me it was quite slow around there anyway.

The Northern Connect service will be via Victoria and will continue towards Halifax so won't go through Oxford Rd.

 

[Sceptre]

Really? Firstly Huddersfield is a huge market for TPE with inbound and outbound commuters, why would they skip that stop? Secondly in which parallel universe is the Calder Valley a faster route than Standedge? The only way it could ever be faster would be to withdraw all the stoppers!

Quite; it's often quicker for me to go BGH–HUD–MAN/MCV than it is for me to go BGH–MCV. Especially on a Sunday.

Speaking of which, LDS–BGH–MCV on a Sunday would be quite nice.

 

[lejog]

I can't believe they will miss Runcorn East out & I understand it also has to call at Newton-le-Willows. Frodsham would also be understandable.

Anyone take a guess at a Chester - Frodsham - Runcorn East - Warrington Bank Quay - Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Todmorden - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford Interchange - New Pudsey - Leeds timing?

Chester - Piccadilly currently 66 mins, so let's say 57 for that (omitting Helsby, Earlestown & Man Oxford Road @ 3 mins each) plus we know 82 mins for the second part...maybe miss Bramley out to get it down to 79? I get that to 136 minutes for 80 odd miles.

Either way it is slower than changing @ Piccadilly currently and the best part of an hour longer than driving.

Just think it is defeating the object of a regional "connect" service for it to be so slow...to have any benefits at all in terms of getting people out of their car and traveling for business or pleasure en masse from Cheshire to West Yorkshire and vv it needs to run via Huddersfield where a 106 minute journey would be possible calling at Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington BQ, Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Ox Road and Picc, Huddersfield & Leeds (that is the timings above CTR-MAN plus quickest TPE MAN-Leeds).

Line speed improvements are currently being implemented on the Calder Valley line and acording to Hendy due for completion in 2018. Someone posted a link here recently to a Network Rail document (sorry I can't remember the document) which showed the dominant line speeds to be increased to 90mph for Manchester/Hebden Bridge/Mirfield (up from 60/70) and 75mph for Halfax to Leeds (up from 60mph). So the journey time for Manchester to Leeds could be cut to say somewhere in the lower 70s minutes.

The main requirement fulfilled by extending Calder Valley trans westwards is to improve links to Bradford, not to compete on a time basis with existing TPE services to Leeds (which would be impossible). Assuming a 15min interval between TPE trains to Leeds from Victoria and a journey time of 50mins, it will always to quicker to change to a TPE service to Leeds at Victoria. I'd rather suspect that the services from Liverpool and Manchester Airport would be advertised as Bradford services rather than Leeds, I don't know about Chester.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Is this still planned to go ahead from December? I haven't heard anything about it recently.

 

[northwichcat]

Is this still planned to go ahead from December? I haven't heard anything about it recently.

It seems to have been postponed with the Calder Valley to Airport service being brought forward in lieu.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It seems to have been postponed with the Calder Valley to Airport service being brought forward in lieu.

Do you know when it is postponed until?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do you know when it is postponed until?

I should think until Northern gets additional suitable cascaded stock, or the new trains arrive.
There's the Calder Valley-Liverpool to come too (and others).