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Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

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northernchris

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That said, I doubt that Northern will be particularly forthcoming to WY passengers about the capacity reduction, since a 331/1 has about 80 fewer seats than a 333...

There was mention previously that the outer cars on the 333s were to have their seating reduced to 2+2 to increase standing space although this was dropped. Travelling to places such as Apperley Bridge, Guiseley and Shipley I think is perfectly acceptable to stand in the peaks, and if as mentioned earlier a couple of extra services can be squeezed in it may not be too bad
 
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Spartacus

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The last time I travelled on a 333 during a peak quite a lot of the 3 abreast seats were only occupied by 2 people still, so while the theoretical maximum seating capacity might be reduced, in practical terms I don't think there'll be much difference.
 

Bantamzen

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The last time I travelled on a 333 during a peak quite a lot of the 3 abreast seats were only occupied by 2 people still, so while the theoretical maximum seating capacity might be reduced, in practical terms I don't think there'll be much difference.

In the evening peaks a lot of services all the seats are taken and are still packed with standees, so a loss of seats will make a difference, especially as some of these services were supposed to be 6 car 331s not 4 car 331s.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Some unrelated musings:

It's speculated that all twelve 331/1s are now heading to Neville Hill. Is this a straight swap for the 16 x 331/0s originally due to go there, since the number of carriages (48) is the same?

The extra units in the NW would be nice, but it's only really the MIA-Blackpool connect service that could really make use of doubled-up 331s.

That said, I doubt that Northern will be particularly forthcoming to WY passengers about the capacity reduction, since a 331/1 has about 80 fewer seats than a 333...

(I'm still concerned about services to Glossop/Crewe/Stoke - if 331/0s replace 323s, that's a seating drop of 80 - more than a quarter. It could attract negative publicity, and come under noticeable pressure in the peaks)
Comparison to a 333 is irrelevant, as they'll be replacing 321/322s not 333s.
 

darloscott

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Would seem odd to send 12 4 car 331s to NL given there is only 7 321/2s - maybe 8 required if you remove the 144 peak diagram on the Airedale side.
 

northernchris

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Would seem odd to send 12 4 car 331s to NL given there is only 7 321/2s - maybe 8 required if you remove the 144 peak diagram on the Airedale side.

There's also a 170 covering the peak extra Leeds - Doncaster so the EMU fleet needs some slack
 

Allwinter_Kit

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I asked Network Rail and Northern about the platform extensions that were originally ingended for the 6 car 331s. No upgrades planned on Aire and Wharfe so that means either SDO or those 6-car dreams are well and truly dead.

Northern also still have no date or info about what they intend to run and when, at least that they are willing to give out yet.

Yay for a "capacity increase" of fewer seats and more standing room.
 

superkev

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It would seem a huge own goal that apparently the Delner couplings on the 331 do not couple even mechanically to the 333s.
Also are Northerns new trains still effectively blacked by ASLEF or has this been resolved?
K
 

Llama

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The training course has been deemed not acceptable, rather than the units. This is still the case.
 

Bantamzen

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The word is now out. 6-car running is apparently delayed until the end of 2021. Platform lengthening at Leeds, rather than at other intermediate stations, is cited to be the required prerequisite.

It's also implied that Northern could have known about this for quite a while...

Source: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...d-back-two-years-due-to-delayed-upgrade-works

Given that Northern probably ordered the 331s before these delays were announced, and that Leeds is perfectly capable of handling 6 car units (the only extension planned there is P0), I think this is not entirely accurate. Especially as the story broke via the BBC...
 

D6700

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Leeds is perfectly capable of handling 6 car units (the only extension planned there is P0)

Platform 0 is an additional platform, not an extension, whilst existing platforms 1 to 6 are to be lengthened. Platform 3 is actually quite short and would not be able to accommodate 6 23m vehicles. Trains need to be stacked in some of these platforms, so lengthening would be required to accommodate more than one train.

This was the announcement for the project, late last year:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/new-platform-part-of-two-more-key-upgrades-for-leeds-station/
"Platforms 1-6 will also be lengthened to cater for longer trains with more seats."
 

Chester1

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According to Manchester Evening News the delay means the 6 coach trains will not run between Manchester and Leeds.... The quality of the journalism is awful!

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...acer-trains-leeds-manchester-delayed-15939477

The launch of longer six-carriage trains from Manchester to Leeds has been delayed
Replacing Pacer trains, they were due to run from December, but won't hit the tracks until the end of 2021

By
Eleanor Barlow
Paul Britton
  • 17:55, 7 MAR 2019
NEWS
Enter your postcode for local news and info
0_MWP-FEB-16-02011JPG.jpg

The much-maligned Pacer (Image: Mark Waugh Manchester Press Photography Ltd)

Northern has announced a delay in the introduction of longer six-carriage trains travelling between Manchester and Leeds.

The much-maligned Pacer trains, described as 'trucks on tracks' by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in Manchester last year, are being replaced by the operator in a £500m scheme.

Six-carriage trains were expected to be introduced in December this year to provide 50 per cent more capacity at peak times, serving stations along the route including Rochdale.

But Northern has announced a delay, saying they won't be available to commuters until the end of 2021.

A spokesman for Northern, which faced widespread criticism over the chaotic timetable collapse last year, said the wait had been caused by delays with Network Rail improvements to platforms at Leeds railway station.

He said: "Northern is introducing £500m of new trains across its network over the next 12 months to provide a much better experience for customers, with free wi-fi, at-seat power sockets, air conditioning and more space than the trains they will replace.

"The new trains have been planned and ordered as two or three-carriage diesel trains, and three or four-carriage electric trains.


0_MWP-MAY-15-20058.jpg

A Pacer in Reddish, Stockport (Image: Mark Waugh Manchester Press Phot)
"The plan for Leeds north west services is to join two of the new three-carriage electric trains together to create a six-carriage formation, providing 50 per cent more capacity at peak times than today.

"However Network Rail delays to building more platform capacity at Leeds station means that the six-carriage formation trains will run when that platform capacity is created, which is expected by December 2021, rather than the original date of December 2019.


0_Pacer-trains.jpg

Pacers will be replaced by a fleet of new electric Class 331 trains (Image: Evening Gazette)
"In the meantime, from December 2019, Northern will introduce four-carriage, brand new electric trains for customers on the Leeds North West routes, providing a higher standard of customer experience than today."

The operator did not comment on when the decision to delay the introduction of the six-carriage service had been made.

Network Rail said the £161m investment scheme into the railway station, which will include platform alterations, upgrades to signalling and the construction of a new platform, had only recently been announced.

A spokesman said: "The platform scheme had previously been paused and, during this time, Network Rail had not committed to a date for it to be delivered.

"We continue to work with industry partners on this project and we look forward to passengers reaping the benefits when it completes in 2021."


0_Pacer-Trains-on-Teesside-which-will-have-to-be-replaced-under-franchise-plans-announced-this-morning.jpg

The delay was blamed on work to upgrade Leeds railway station (Image: Evening Gazette)

The hated Pacer trains - a hybrid of a bus and a train - were built in the 1980s with a supposed lifespan of 20 years.

Created by mounting an old bus frame on to train wheels and designed to operate on mainly rural routes, they were supposed to be a stop-gap measure on mainly rural routes, but have been used to serve busy commuter towns and cities ever since.

Iran was the only other country to run Pacers, but the trains there have reportedly been shelved.

There are currently around 102 gracing routes including Manchester to Leeds via Hebden Bridge and Manchester to Wigan and Southport.

They make up 26 per cent of Northern's 397-strong fleet.
 
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Bantamzen

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Platform 0 is an additional platform, not an extension, whilst existing platforms 1 to 6 are to be lengthened. Platform 3 is actually quite short and would not be able to accommodate 6 23m vehicles. Trains need to be stacked in some of these platforms, so lengthening would be required to accommodate more than one train.

This was the announcement for the project, late last year:
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/new-platform-part-of-two-more-key-upgrades-for-leeds-station/
"Platforms 1-6 will also be lengthened to cater for longer trains with more seats."

The six car 331s were only planned for a handful of peak time Leeds-Skipton services, they could still be provisioned for with the current layout. The real issue here is that few stations on the Aire route can handle six car formations and there are yet no finalised plans to extend any.

According to Manchester Evening News the delay means the 6 coach trains will not run between Manchester and Leeds.... The quality of the journalism is awful!

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...acer-trains-leeds-manchester-delayed-15939477

This shows the quality of journalism these days, lazy hacks feeding off other poorly researched articles.
 

Buspilot

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The Manchester Evening News seems to be under the impression that the lines across the Pennines are electrified! It's poor reporting and research at the very least. Probably should be classed as a case of fake news.
"The plan for Leeds north west services is to join two of the new three-carriage electric trains together to create a six-carriage formation."
"In the meantime, from December 2019, Northern will introduce four-carriage, brand new electric trains for customers on the Leeds North West routes"
 

driver_m

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There was a 4 car out yesterday doing bank quay-Preston runs. Whether that was for testing/training I've no idea.
 

Greybeard33

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Manchester will get the same number of 3 cars until the platforms are lengthened, then a swap for the 4 cars should happen.
Upthread it was suggested that the North West will receive the 16 3-car units that were originally destined for Yorkshire, in exchange for the 12 4-cars. So the same number of carriages (48).

The North West allocation was originally intended to cover the Windermere Connect services, which are now going to be worked by 195s. So there should be enough units for at least some of the Blackpool - Airport Connect diagrams to be worked by 6-car formations.
 

js1000

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Manchester will get the same number of 3 cars until the platforms are lengthened, then a swap for the 4 cars should happen.
Upthread it was suggested that the North West will receive the 16 3-car units that were originally destined for Yorkshire, in exchange for the 12 4-cars. So the same number of carriages (48).

The North West allocation was originally intended to cover the Windermere Connect services, which are now going to be worked by 195s. So there should be enough units for at least some of the Blackpool - Airport Connect diagrams to be worked by 6-car formations.
As I understand it, most electrified stations (Styal Line, Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel) in Manchester can accommodate 6 carriage units so doubled up 323s and 331s are possible. The problem will be platform capacity at Manchester Airport bearing in mind TPE are also introducing 5 carriage trains.
 

scrapy

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As I understand it, most electrified stations (Styal Line, Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel) in Manchester can accommodate 6 carriage units so doubled up 323s and 331s are possible. The problem will be platform capacity at Manchester Airport bearing in mind TPE are also introducing 5 carriage trains.
Only the Stoke (to Manchester) line can take 6 car trains at all stations and even then they can't use the bay platform at Stoke which causes capacity issues in the through platforms. East Didsbury and Mauldeth Rd certainly can't take 6 car and neither can Alderley Edge of Chelford on the Crewe line. None of the Hadfield line stations except Hattersley can take 6 car.
 

Tony Mason

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Just read that the class 331's have been given the go ahead to start operation on the Liverpool/Manchester to Blackpool services I don't supose anyone knows dates
 
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