Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

[Bovverboy]

Meanwhile, the 0912 Oxford Road to Lime Street semi-fast and 1016 Lime Street to Manchester Airport have been cancelled, and the 1150 Airport - Lime Street started from Oxford Road, all down to 'a fault with the traction equipment'. Problems appear to have started on the 0709 Lime Street to Oxford Road (semi-fast), the unit spent five minutes at Irlam, then lost a further ten minutes between there and Oxford Road. There's a good hour's scheduled dwell there, but, in the event, departure wasn't until 1213. Strange thing, the arrival platform looks to have been P5 (as scheduled), but departure was apparently from P1, with no shunt moves showing in between!

 

[Boysteve]

Well the 6 car formation is back this evening on the CLC route, despite this mornings cancellation.

 

[Llama]

Aslef have given Northern a deadline of the end of September to iron out the issues with the Asdo system.

 

[northernchris]

Aslef have given Northern a deadline of the end of September to iron out the issues with the Asdo system.

If this isn't achieved would it mean drivers are instructed not to drive the 195s?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Aslef have given Northern a deadline of the end of September to iron out the issues with the Asdo system.

Excellent, someone showing an appropriate sense of urgency.

 

[Bovverboy]

Aslef have given Northern a deadline of the end of September to iron out the issues with the Asdo system.

Excellent, someone showing an appropriate sense of urgency.

For once, I'm with the union on this point. I'm surprised at them even allowing Northern until the end of September.

 

[Bovverboy]

0518 Preston - Barrow and 0746 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled this morning. (Train fault).

In the event, the 0746 ex-Barrow was started at Preston at 0908, using a Sprinter (?) which had been sent ECS from Newton Heath.

Unit on the uncancelled part of Diagram 1 confirmed as a Sprinter, 156424. I was pretty sure it must have been a Sprinter of some description sent out from Newton Heath since, according to RTT, it had come from Newton Heath to Victoria coupled to 3D32, 0430 Newton Heath to Chester ECS.

 

[Bovverboy]

The turnout of 195s, afternoon/evening, today (Thursday 22/8/19) has been as follows. (Diagram numbers as designated in posts #1 and #304 of this thread).
Diagram 1: 156424
Diagram 2: 195116
Diagram 3: 195119
Diagram 4: 195122
Diagram 5: 195121
Diagram 6: 195115
Diagram 7: 195117
Diagram 8: 195114
Diagram 9: 195125
Diagram 10: 195120
Diagram 11: 195118
Diagram 12 - that's the diagram which provides the unit to pair with Diagram 11 from 0551 to 2205 - has not operated. (Yes, I've now split 'Diagram 11' into 'Diagram 11' and 'Diagram 12' -see post #304).

Note that of the 195/1s known to have seen public service, only 195102 and 195124 have not been in evidence today - and those are the units which were reputedly involved in the 'Hunts Cross' incident of yesterday afternoon.

Does anyone know where 195001 & 195007 are? If 195007 completed Diagram 1 yesterday (it was reported on that diagram by darloscott) it would have finished at Barrow, yet it hasn't appeared on any of the Barrow starts today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For once, I'm with the union on this point. I'm surprised at them even allowing Northern until the end of September.

Given that it's caused people to be whacked by doors with no warning which could knock them on the track, I'm genuinely surprised they are not all withdrawn from service immediately as unsafe. Or has that specific issue been fixed?

 

[js1000]

Aslef have given Northern a deadline of the end of September to iron out the issues with the Asdo system.

I thought the ASDO / door problems are a result of the train not stopping in the correct position on the platform to communicate with the ASDO beacons? This appears to be a particular problem at stations with bi-directional platforms - Oxford Road and Piccadilly most notably. Or is it an inherent fault in the software that is causing doors?

 

[Llama]

There are no Asdo beacons for the Northern stock. The ones you will see dotted about are for TPE.

 

[Llama]

If this isn't achieved would it mean drivers are instructed not to drive the 195s?

Not necessarily. But the ASDO can be switched off, whether it comes to that remains to be seen.

 

[scrapy]

Given that it's caused people to be whacked by doors with no warning which could knock them on the track, I'm genuinely surprised they are not all withdrawn from service immediately as unsafe. Or has that specific issue been fixed?

It's not actually the ASDO that's causing the doors to close it's the SDO used at stations with more than 2 platforms or bidirectional platforms although the systems are linked and ASDO could not be used with SDO. ASDO works off GPS and there are blackspots and interference issues, Heald Green being a particular problem possibly due to being under the flight path that's only a theory as they don't seem to know what's causing reoccurring problems there.

Whilst ASDO can be isolated, being able to run trains without it may have other unknown issues. The units have only ever been tested with ASDO in use as it was not expected to run them without it so i doubt whether it would be acceptable to run trains using something that is untested. Again conductors have only been trained on procedures using ASDO and would need an element of training, and assessment on new procedures.

 

[Bovverboy]

Here's a teaser for someone. Where is it possible to see 195s travelling on adjacent tracks, and heading in the same direction? Both must be on a scheduled diagram, and running reasonably to time.
I'm not saying that the above necessarily happens every day, but it can, and does, happen occasionally.

 

[Bovverboy]

Diagram 11 missed for two round trips yesterday afternoon, 1316-1903. (Crew unavailability). Duty 5 also missed Picc-Airport-Picc on the round trip beginning 2016 ex-Lime Street - this was a consequence of accumulated late running, caused by congestion and possibly waiting for a crew member.
Diagrams 6 and 7 combined as scheduled for the 1516 Lime Street - Airport and 1645 return, 195121+195115. For the 1816 departure from Lime Street, however, 195121 wasn't split from 195115 as might be expected, instead 195118 was used, this was the unit which should have worked the 1316 and 1616 departures, both cancelled. This meant a unit was required for the 1916 departure, but instead of 195121 being split from 195115, the complete consist set off for the Airport, but with the rear unit (195115) out of use. I presume the double returned as the 2047 ex-Airport, as scheduled, but I couldn't hang around to witness.

 

[Karl]

Here's a teaser for someone. Where is it possible to see 195s travelling on adjacent tracks, and heading in the same direction? Both must be on a scheduled diagram, and running reasonably to time.
I'm not saying that the above necessarily happens every day, but it can, and does, happen occasionally.

I can't remember if it was 195s or 319s but I saw on the Leyland Railcam two units running parallel south past the cam at the same time.

 

[Bovverboy]

Does anyone know where 195001 & 195007 are?

As of this afternoon (Sat 24/8/19) they are both parked in the yard at Newton Heath, adjacent to the Metrolink. There is a 195/1 parked next to them (i.d. not known) and another 195 in the workshops, Lane 5.

 

[Bovverboy]

I can't remember if it was 195s or 319s but I saw on the Leyland Railcam two units running parallel south past the cam at the same time.

With 3x319 to Bolton every hour and 1x319 to Wigan, seeing two together isn't inconceivable, but seeing two 195s together is going to be much, much harder. I'll be very surprised, indeed, if anyone twigs where it's possible.

 

[Staffordian]

With 3x319 to Bolton every hour and 1x319 to Wigan, seeing two together isn't inconceivable, but seeing two 195s together is going to be much, much harder. I'll be very surprised, indeed, if anyone twigs where it's possible.

I can only think of Oxford Road around 0800, where 1U91 ex Barrow to Airport is due in P4 at 0757 and 1O42 terminator ex Lime Street is due at 0805 in P5. If 1U91 is held behind 2H02 Blackpool - Hazel Grove in P4, then perhaps 1U91 and 1O42 might approach in parallel at the same time.

 

[Bovverboy]

I can only think of Oxford Road around 0800, where 1U91 ex Barrow to Airport is due in P4 at 0757 and 1O42 terminator ex Lime Street is due at 0805 in P5. If 1U91 is held behind 2H02 Blackpool - Hazel Grove in P4, then perhaps 1U91 and 1O42 might approach in parallel at the same time.

To have two 195s travelling side by side you would need to have them pass Deansgate more or less simultaneously, with one unit passing through each platform. That would never happen - I believe the signalling permits an up movement through the down platform, but I'm sure it would only be allowed if the line through the up platform was somehow blocked. I believe it happened quite recently when, for some reason, a TfW was stuck in the up platform.
What's more, to get into P4 at Oxford Road from the down line the train would have to use the crossover well before the station, and that move can't be made without passing over the points at the entrance to P5. A train might be able to get from the down line into P3 without conflicting with those points, but even that I'm not sure about.

Okay, once the stopper is in P5 195s can, and do, pass them, while entering P4, but by that time the stopper needs to be very much stationary, and that, of course, is not what I had in mind.

I'll give everyone a clue, when the situation exists which has the potential to result in one 195 passing another, with both of them being in motion, it exists at approximately 2140 hrs.

 

[Bovverboy]

Does anyone know where 195001 & 195007 are?

As of this afternoon (Sat 24/8/19) they are both parked in the yard at Newton Heath, adjacent to the Metrolink. There is a 195/1 parked next to them (i.d. not known) and another 195 in the workshops, Lane 5.

195124 is visible in the yard at Allerton. In view of where it and 195102 expired on Wednesday I would have thought that 195102 would be there as well, but you never know, it might be one of those visible, but unidentifiable, at Newton Heath.
Apart from 195102 and 195124, the only 195/1 not evident in service yesterday (Sat) was 195117, but I'm inclined to conclude that this started and finished at Barrow, but, because of service cancellations, it probably ventured no further south than Lancaster. Certainly, after having been on Diagram 1 on Friday, it should have finished at Barrow, and I can account for all the other Saturday Barrow starts.
So, of the two 195s at Newton Heath visible, but unidentifiable, one may or not be 195102, the other is completely unknown.
331007, 331009, and 331104 are visible at Allerton, together with another CAF. This may be 195102, or it may be another 331.

 

[Bovverboy]

The list of 195 cancellations yesterday (Sat) seems very modest indeed compared to last Saturday. This list is complete, to the best of my knowledge.
1146 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled
1429 Manchester Airport - Windermere cancelled to Preston
1530 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled after Preston
1645 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled to Preston (actually went ECS)
2129 Liverpool - Manchester Airport cancelled after Oxford Road (went ECS Oxford Road - Allerton at 2250)
2249 Manchester Airport - Liverpool cancelled
The cancellations on Barrow/Windermere were ascribed to staffing issues, the later ones to a problem with the traction equipment.

 

[Bovverboy]

The following journeys are coming up on 'Journey Check' today (Sun)as being formed of three coaches - 1116, 1716, and 2016 Liverpool - Airport and their relevant returns. These are from the diagram which last Sunday, turned out to be 195-operated - but most of the diagrammed journeys were cancelled! It seems likely that the journeys mentioned are being 195-operated today, but already there is a cancellation, 1416 ex-Liverpool and 1551 return.
The 0916 and 1216 ex-Lime Street have also missed, and the 1050 return. The 1351 return is, at the moment, still showing as operating.

 

[Bovverboy]

Cancellations on Airport - Barrow/Windermere appear to be greater today than the average of recent Sundays, and on a par with Saturday 17/8/19.
In particular, only one journey Oxenholme - Windermere - Oxenholme looks to have operated, up to now.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 1351 return is, at the moment, still showing as operating.

The 1351 Airport - Liverpool did indeed operate, apparently using the stock off the 0821 Liverpool - Airport. This latter journey doesn't appear to have a return, so I can only suppose it is diagrammed for a 156 and couples up to the one working the 0916 ex-Liverpool, to form the 1050 ex-Airport. Today, that can't have happened.
Can anyone say what is actually working Liverpool - Airport today?

 

[156420]

The 1351 Airport - Liverpool did indeed operate, apparently using the stock off the 0821 Liverpool - Airport. This latter journey doesn't appear to have a return, so I can only suppose it is diagrammed for a 156 and couples up to the one working the 0916 ex-Liverpool, to form the 1050 ex-Airport. Today, that can't have happened.
Can anyone say what is actually working Liverpool - Airport today?

All 156’s from what I saw, apart from a 195 stabled in P10 at Lime Street.

The Sunday turns are booked for 2 - 2x156’s and the other circuit 2 x 195/0.

 

[Bovverboy]

Can anyone say what is actually working Liverpool - Airport today?

All 156’s from what I saw, apart from a 195 stabled in P10 at Lime Street.

The 2119 Liverpool - Airport was 156421+156440. By the time I caught the set at Picc at 2216, it was the only Liverpool - Airport diagram still operating, the other two were grounded!

The Sunday turns are booked for 2 - 2x156’s and the other circuit 2 x 195/0.

Are you sure about 2x195/0s being booked for the third Sunday duty? There are only the two 195/0s available at present, and they certainly haven't done a Sunday duty on Liverpool - Airport yet. Last Sunday it was reported that 195125 worked the third diagram (what little of it operated), and yesterday 'Journey Check' was showing the train as short-formed of three coaches, again implying a 195/1.
Whatever was on the third diagram should have been stabled in P10 from 1401 when it arrived as the 1248 ex-Airport; it didn't go back in service again. I can't see any sign of it going to Allerton or anywhere, so it looks to be staying in P10 in order to do 0337 Lime Street - Airport. I presume it was a 195/1 you saw in P10, I'm sure you would have said, had it been a 195/0.
Last week only two passenger journeys on the diagram operated (out of nine!), this week was 50% better, a grand total of three operated.

 

[156420]

Are you sure about 2x195/0s being booked for the third Sunday duty? There are only the two 195/0s available at present, and they certainly haven't done a Sunday duty on Liverpool - Airport yet. Last Sunday it was reported that 195125 worked the third diagram (what little of it operated), and yesterday 'Journey Check' was showing the train as short-formed of three coaches, again implying a 195/1.

100%

That’s what’s on paper at least, what happens in reality could be different, especially with the reliability and traincrew issues meaning many diagrams are out of course.

They split after 20:16 ex-Lime St half to NH, the other half stays out and stables at Lime Street for the 0337

 

[Bovverboy]

Cancellations on Airport - Barrow/Windermere appear to be greater today than the average of recent Sundays, and on a par with Saturday 17/8/19.
In particular, only one journey Oxenholme - Windermere - Oxenholme looks to have operated, up to now.

Yes, it was bad. The following list of cancellations I believe to be complete, but I'll stand corrected, of course. One cancellation not mentioned is of a return trip Barrow - Lancaster, as it isn't on a 195 diagram.

Diagram 1 (see post #116 of this thread)
0947 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled after Preston
1241 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled to Preston

Diagram 2 (see post #116 of this thread)
No cancellations!

Diagram 3 (see post #116 of this thread)
0918 Preston - Manchester Airport cancelled after Manchester Piccadilly - held 32 minutes at Wigan North Western, presumably waiting for a crew member
1035 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled to Manchester Piccadilly
1447 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled after Manchester Oxford Road
1733 Manchester Airport - Windermere cancelled to Manchester Oxford Road

Additional diagram (see post #197 of this thread)
1133 Manchester Airport - Windermere cancelled after Oxenholme
1358 Windermere -Oxenholme cancelled

Additional diagram (starts 1137 Barrow - Manchester Airport)
1137 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled
1433 Manchester Airport - Windermere cancelled to Preston
1901 Windermere - Manchester Airport cancelled after Preston

Additional diagram (starts 0833 Manchester Airport - Windermere)
0833 Manchester Airport - Windermere cancelled
1055 Windermere - Oxenholme cancelled
1118 Oxenholme - Windermere cancelled
1140 Windermere - Oxenholme cancelled
1247 Oxenholme - Windermere cancelled
1308 Windermere - Manchester Airport cancelled to Oxenholme and after Preston
1533 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled to Preston

Additional diagram (starts 0935 Manchester Airport - Barrow)
0935 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled
1347 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled
1633 Manchester Airport - Barrow cancelled
1947 Barrow - Manchester Airport cancelled
(The entire diagram, cancelled!)

The above cancellations represent almost 40% of the journeys scheduled. Note, particularly, four consecutive departures from Manchester Airport cancelled, 1433 to 1733 inclusive.

There were certainly strange goings on up Windermere way. As you'll see, above, the first Windermere, 0833 ex-Manchester Airport, missed completely, as did the next journeys Windermere-Oxenholme-Windermere-Oxenholme. A unit was then sent ECS from Preston to Oxenholme and it worked 1201 Oxenholme - Windermere and 1223 return. The next round trip, 1247 Oxenholme - Windermere, and the Windermere - Oxenholme section of the 1308 Windermere - Manchester Airport, was cancelled. Perhaps the crew received so much flak on the 1201/1223 that they refused to do another trip! I can believe it.
Whatever the problem was, it continued for another round trip, the Oxenholme - Windermere part of the 1133 ex-Manchester Airport and 1358 Windermere - Oxenholme were also cancelled. After that, things seemed to get back to normal. So only one round trip, out of the first five scheduled, operated on the Windermere branch.

 

[Boysteve]

In general the amount of cancellations (whether 195 related or not) have become a joke, and not a good one. I am surprised that Andy Burnham has not been on his soapbox although he would be justified in doing so.