Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[LOL The Irony]

How modular are the 195s construction wise? Can they be converted to 331 in the future?

I'm of the opinion they should be able to work in multiple with each other or at least have the ability to insert a motor coach with pantograph into the formation.

I don't think it's that modular and seems way more expensive than just ordering more 331's.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Was hoping for something like the Thameslink PIS on 700s, or in some of TPE's refurbed 185s.
ie something better than a scrolling one-liner.
(eg showing stopping pattern, real time updates, connection times etc).
No doubt we'll soon find out.

The report on the local BBC News following the press launch said the TV screens at the end of the carriage change en-route and provide relevant information. Hopefully, this mean they will act like the screens on the Abellio/Serco Northern demo 158 refurb which showed departure screens on the approach to interchange stations. I thought that was quite useful. I'm not overly hopeful though because when I travelled on an Arriva refurbished 158 with those screens fitted all they showed was adverts. We'll see tomorrow.

 

[palmersears]

I'm aboard a brand new Northern train! 195119 arrived on time at Piccadilly and we're off to Lime Street. I'll summarise my thoughts in full when we get to t'other end, but so far what I will say is that the lack of the usual fourth carriage is causing the normals to grumble already...

 

[Mathew S]

Well, my commute (0823 Wigan - Picc) which should be a 195 has been delayed by 15 mins between Barrow and Ulverston 'due to a fault in this train'. Good start

 

[palmersears]

As promised, my review in full:

• They look superb. I'd seen a few passing Edge Hill where they've been arriving, but up close they're even better. I heard the same comments from a number of normal commuters.
• Doors at thirds are going to be useful, and the crowds at both Piccadilly and Oxford Road boarded quicker than with the 156s.
• I mentioned the lack of a fourth coach initially, but bar a couple of people standing there are enough seats to go round. I imagine two 195/0s will be more than sufficient in time.
• Seat to window alignment is poor in a number of places, particularly at tables
• The PIS just displayed 'Not in Service' for the duration, however the auto announcements did work, and were a mix of the usual male and female for the route announcements, with the safety announcements done by a different male who sounds vaguely Geordie, who I assume is new as I've not heard him before
• Seat reservation screens are going to be a bit difficult to see for some. Are these even going to be used on Northern Connect services?
• Lighting is decent, with it being far less oppressive than on the refurbished sprinters, and add to the light, airy feel overall
• Complaints from a number of people that, whilst the plug sockets are welcome, their position between the seats is very difficult to access
• There's a distinct, and frequent, noise that sounds very spaceship-like coming from above where I'm sitting in the lead coach (seat A19). No idea what it is, but it's annoying
• Seats are pretty solid. Not sure they'll be much fun on longer routes.
• The door buttons are the flat design that's the norm these days, I think people will take a while to get used to them as they don't give as much tangible feedback as sprinter buttons.
• We had issues with the door release at Piccadilly, but they've been fine since
• Staff weren't sure which door to use for the disabled access ramp when a wheelchair user wanted to board at Warrington Central...
• Driver was, understandably, very conservative with acceleration and braking. I get the feeling they'll go like stink from a standing start.
• I'd say the ride overall was noticeably smoother than usual, and it's certainly nice not to hear the tired rumble of a sprinter dragging itself out of each station, but then I'd expect that from a new unit

Overall I'm impressed. Seats will be an issue for longer distances, but they solid units which will certainly improve the experience for us long suffering Northern commuters. It's wonderful to see new trains for the region, and I thank all those involved in the long slog to get them into service. I just hope that snags are thin on the ground and driver training progresses smoothly to ensure the 156s don't need to return.

 

[Mathew S]

Well, my commute (0823 Wigan - Picc) which should be a 195 has been delayed by 15 mins between Barrow and Ulverston 'due to a fault in this train'. Good start

Andnow 29 mins down at Grange over Sands. Oh deary me.

 

[a_c_skinner]

May be a good time to walk to Wallgate! This really isn't good enough, if it is a train fault. There is a railway subculture that seems to accept early faulty running despite a level of testing most land vehicles don't enjoy.

 

[LeylandLen]

Andnow 29 mins down at Grange over Sands. Oh deary me.

The delay could be down to passengers doing something wrong ,I wouldnt jump to any conclusions so early on its debut. Just seen it heading down WCML to Lancaster, even though its about 30 mins late ..

Radio Lancashire did say at 0700 news "no new trains working in Lancashire yet ", however in 0800 did say they are working from Barrow to MIA. I would have liked them to have a reporter on a new 195 ; or at least at Carnforth, Lancaster, or Preston if only to say they have been seen in service.l

 

[Mathew S]

May be a good time to walk to Wallgate! This really isn't good enough, if it is a train fault. There is a railway subculture that seems to accept early faulty running despite a level of testing most land vehicles don't enjoy.

Already done, . Happily, sort of, this means that my first journey planners for a 195 will result in another delay repay claim for Northern. Totally agree, not good enough at all.

The delay could be down to passengers doing something wrong ,I wouldnt jump to any conclusions so early on its debut. Just seen it heading down WCML to Lancaster, even though its about 30 mins late ..

It's a train fault, on the 195. At least, that's what Northern themselves are saying.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The delay could be down to passengers doing something wrong

I use the Furness Line; my fellow travellers can board a train without too much intellectual challenge. If the design of the train allows passengers to inadvertently do something that costs so much time then back to my previous "not good enough" analysis.
It seems to be not losing more time (at Preston).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Has the introduction of 195's on some routes allowed the withdrawal of Pacers yet or are Pacers going to couple up to other 14x and 15x trains for now?

 

[Mathew S]

Has the introduction of 195's on some routes allowed the withdrawal of Pacers yet or are Pacers going to couple up to other 14x and 15x trains for now?

Well, I travelled on 2 x Pacers from Wigan to Manchester this morning because my 195 was half an hour late (yes, I'm a bit cross about that) so they're not going anywhere yet.

Northern seem to have told the media that have asked them that the first Pacers will depart in August.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I've noted of test runs is that the doors are generally not operated at every station, and door faults (or problems with door design e.g. slow operation on 230s) seem to be something that comes up quite a lot with new stock.

Perhaps this needs to be addressed for future new stock? They could put hazard tape across the entrance to prevent boarding. Or even do some testing (once the basic safety stuff is ticked) in passenger service as unadvertised additional trains?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Well, I travelled on 2 x Pacers from Wigan to Manchester this morning because my 195 was half an hour late (yes, I'm a bit cross about that) so they're not going anywhere yet.

Northern seem to have told the media that have asked them that the first Pacers will depart in August.

That would be the 195 that's come from Barrow-in-Furness at 06:47 that should have left Wigan North Western at 08:53 I guess.

 

[Bantamzen]

One thing I've noted of test runs is that the doors are generally not operated at every station, and door faults (or problems with door design e.g. slow operation on 230s) seem to be something that comes up quite a lot with new stock.

Perhaps this needs to be addressed for future new stock? They could put hazard tape across the entrance to prevent boarding. Or even do some testing (once the basic safety stuff is ticked) in passenger service as unadvertised additional trains?

More testing could be done I guess, but at the end of the day nothing will properly simulate the actual passenger experience, with people angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them etc etc. One thing I have learnt from my own job in development is no matter how well you try to anticipate user interactions, the great public will find something you just didn't cover....

 

[Bletchleyite]

More testing could be done I guess, but at the end of the day nothing will properly simulate the actual passenger experience, with people angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them etc etc. One thing I have learnt from my own job in development is no matter how well you try to anticipate user interactions, the great public will find something you just didn't cover....

I wonder is there any way to incentivise for finding fault? A bit like they simulate people rushing to get off a plane in emergency by offering the first N people who get off the plane in the test 50 quid?

 

[js1000]

Great trip this morning. What an upgrade. They are incomparable to anything Northern has. Very spacious. Wasn't particularly busy but can't see that lasting for long. A few teething problems but to be expected.

 

[Mathew S]

That would be the 195 that's come from Barrow-in-Furness at 06:47 that should have left Wigan North Western at 08:53 I guess.

Thats the one. Should have left Wigan at 0823, actually left at 0855 which, coincidentally, is when it should have arrived into Manchester

More testing could be done I guess, but at the end of the day nothing will properly simulate the actual passenger experience, with people angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them etc etc. One thing I have learnt from my own job in development is no matter how well you try to anticipate user interactions, the great public will find something you just didn't cover....

Very true indeed.

 

[superalbs]

Found myself in the single seat at the end of a 195 unit. My thoughts on these are the same as my thoughts on the 331, but with the following differences:

* The announcements are working, but they aren't too annoying. Hooray!

* The diesel engines are not very loud, and barely noticeable when over the bogies rather than in the centre section.

* The ride quality is actually amazing, but the bogies clank around a lot. More noise than shaking though.

All in all, a stunning pair of units.

 

[Jozhua]

For those who have tried the 195's, what is the situation like walking between carriages and any experiences with the toilet or luggage space availability?

 

[a_c_skinner]

but at the end of the day nothing will properly simulate the actual passenger experience, with people angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them etc etc.

Not really. We don't need this acceptance of mediocrity. You could hire people who would be angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them. It is just a matter of watching what people do in real life and then renting a mob to do it to your new trains, ideally at prototyping, a stage we now omit.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not really. We don't need this acceptance of mediocrity. You could hire people who would be angrily spamming at door open buttons, jamming briefcases between closing doors, dozens of people leaning up against them. It is just a matter of watching what people do in real life and then renting a mob to do it to your new trains, ideally at prototyping, a stage we now omit.

Well we don't know what the issue was yet, so calling it mediocrity is a bit premature. All I do know is that sometimes things go wrong, especially when moving from a test to live status, be it a DMU, a piece of software or a washing machine. To expect 100% perfection from Day One is optimistic at best, naïve at worst. Snagging issues is part and parcel of project work, and whilst not ideal in this situation for the passengers its far being something to be angry about.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Fair enough. Sorry. Snagging should be for prototypes or testing not service though. It is on its way back now and still 30 minutes late of course as there is no scope for recovery time at the airport.

 

[Bantamzen]

Fair enough. Sorry. Snagging should be for prototypes or testing not service though. It is on its way back now and still 30 minutes late of course as there is no scope for recovery time at the airport.

But that's my point, there will always be some situations where problems will only come to light when in operation. I'm sure all sorts of testing & snagging has been done, but there are always situations you just don't think of in any project that can happen. Of course we don't know what the issue was with this 195, it could be mechanical, software related, the crew may have had issues, and of course once off it's timed path recovery times might have been impossible. These are after all quite a step up from anything Northern have had previously, and so there's lots for the crews & mechanics to get their heads around in what is a short pace of time.

Hopefully they will prove to be reliable & improve the journeys for the passengers in the North West.

 

[Bovverboy]

Has the introduction of 195's on some routes allowed the withdrawal of Pacers yet or are Pacers going to couple up to other 14x and 15x trains for now?

Northern seem to have told the media that have asked them that the first Pacers will depart in August.

195s may be arriving, and Pacers may be going, but there's the usual gamut of short-formed trains today.

 

[setdown]

Are there any particular reasons why introduction was on a Monday, rather than Sunday? From an ignorant point of view, surely you’d want to have first revenue-earning service on a day where the timetable is quieter, and recovery might be easier.

 

[notverydeep]

I wonder is there any way to incentivise for finding fault? A bit like they simulate people rushing to get off a plane in emergency by offering the first N people who get off the plane in the test 50 quid?

£50! When I was at Cranfield University it was only £5 for being in the first 75% off the plane (although that was 25 years ago). Still worked with Students though - like a riot...

 

[RAPC]

I wonder is there any way to incentivise for finding fault? A bit like they simulate people rushing to get off a plane in emergency by offering the first N people who get off the plane in the test 50 quid?

No idea who is running incentivised tests like that, but they certainly shouldn’t be. A lot of the safety testing that goes on at the likes of Cranfield is done with people paid for time, not for quicker exit times. Yes, they will be asked to attempt scenarios like that, but they won’t be incentivised to be the quickest. That incentivised practice ended a number of years ago after a few nasty incidents with people ending up in A&E

 

[Bletchleyite]

No idea who is running incentivised tests like that, but they certainly shouldn’t be. A lot of the safety testing that goes on at the likes of Cranfield is done with people paid for time, not for quicker exit times. Yes, they will be asked to attempt scenarios like that, but they won’t be incentivised to be the quickest. That incentivised practice ended a number of years ago after a few nasty incidents with people ending up in A&E

I don't know who does it but it absolutely does (or did) go on. It's done, with volunteers, to provide motivation to push and shove, creating a real-life scenario.

I suppose the difficulty with it is that in a real aircraft evacuation a certain amount of "collateral damage" (as in minor, fixable injuries including such things as sprained and broken limbs) is acceptable "in extremis" provided it stops people burning to death (so an outcome of a real aircraft evacuation where everyone ended up in A&E would be considered a successful one[1], though also one to feed into improvements for the future). Obviously people won't like that in a test run.

[1] "A good landing is one you can walk away from, a great one is one where you can use the aircraft again."

 

[pompeyfan]

What’s the current method of operation on these? Is it driver release, conductor close from the last set of doors? What does the GOP look like?