Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Mollman]

The 2/3-car 195 thing: W&B have gone the same way for their CAF units (though sadly with gangways).
The 175 fleet (ordered by FNW) was the same.
The plan was 2-car on local lines, 3-car on regional, doubled up (4, 5 or 6) in the peaks and on core sections.
Of course, it ended up with 27 single units with 2-car turning up on what had originally been planned as double sets.
Part of that was of course the dismal reliability of the 175s in the early days, but ATW continues the practice to spread the fleet as thinly as possible.

Not sure why you say "sadly with gangways" that to me is common sense. If they are regularly running units doubled up it means that both passengers and the guard can move between sets on the move. This stops issues to do with one unit being overcrowded whilst the other is half empty (as happens with 185s and 221s), people going in the otehr unit to the guard to avoid paying and increases customer safety as the guard can deal with anti-social behavior rather than being in the wrong set.

 

[nidave]

It answers how I can get impressions from pictures.

But you will have already ordered the item before 99.9999% of the time so know what to expect. Your making a snap judgment based on very little information and preforming mental gymnastics to justify it when called out in it.

You might want to... You know...Ride one and make an informed rational decision.

 

[Bornin1980s]

This is where people end up having heated arguments about the seats on trains that aren't yet in service because their Spider-senses can apparently tell what's going to be comfortable from viewing an Artists Impression!

Based on my first impressions of seeing the 195s they look... okay... nothing exciting but then nothing that will age that badly - the fairly angular design could have been for a Network South East prototype thirty years ago - it's quite a functional look.

I previously thought that the short nature of them (and lack of corridor connections) would be a problem on routes like Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds, but the industrial disruption on Northern seems to be choking off discretionary passengers so a two/three coach DMU may end up being sufficient in the short/medium term. The WMT franchise has given Arriva a bit of breathing space in that the 195 production line is potentially being kept open a good bit longer than initially expected, so if best comes to best then there are at least options for more stock.

But what Northern needs is more basic 75mph DMUs (which may mean hoovering up any and all 150s/156s from elsewhere) - the second hand market will have a number of 158/170/175/185s on it over the next couple of years, but most unelectrified Northern routes are basic ones where the DMU rarely gets above 50mph, yet alone the 75mph maximum speed of a 150/156. The economics of the franchise mean that we are doing well to get any brand new stock, so I'm not expecting additional 195s any time soon.

I suppose almost any new cab design would be a disappointment after the original Turbostar.

As for speed, would the multi-speed gearbox enable a 195 to handle slow local workings better than older high-speed units like the 170s?

In any case, is it even possible to order new diesels of any kind after Jo Johnson's ludicrous promise to eradicate diesel only trains by 2040?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not sure why you say "sadly with gangways" that to me is common sense. If they are regularly running units doubled up it means that both passengers and the guard can move between sets on the move. This stops issues to do with one unit being overcrowded whilst the other is half empty (as happens with 185s and 221s), people going in the otehr unit to the guard to avoid paying and increases customer safety as the guard can deal with anti-social behavior rather than being in the wrong set.

I thought from recent full-windscreen MU orders (eg Northern and GA) that we had got out of the gangway era.
Apart from being downright unsightly, I can't believe drivers enjoy being stuck in a tiny cubicle with a poor view.
I believe is also can affect signal sighting so that can't be good for operation or railway costs.
Hardy any continental railways have MUs with corridor connections.
It doesn't seem to bother TPE with their 185s or ATW with their 175s.
The entire 5-car class 800 fleet is expected to double up without corridors, as are Voyagers.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I had a decent look at the interior (from the outside) of 195103 whilst it waited time at Preston yesterday. This is probably adding nothing new but the impression I got was plenty of tables but a generally poor alignment with the windows. The seats also looked inadequate for a long journey, which is what these units will be doing.

My overall impression was they are worse than a 158. Though hopefully the air con will be better.

 

[tbtc]

You can turn to a rail system that is operated by the private sector yet has a £5 billion plus debt, far higher than under BR years. Please forgive the grammar I went to school in the Uk.

The debt you refer to is presumably the Network Rail debt (i.e. Public Sector)?

Not sure how Network Rail's inability to control its costs is the fault of privatisation - maybe the problem is just that everything is much more expensive in the infrastructure/ construction/ building industries nowadays (than the kind of shoe-string approach that BR used to get away with)?

Great! more 2 car sets - that should help clear the crowds on Platform 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.

It's going to be horrible!

Two car units were ordered with the future in mind as well as now. In the future, I think it's highly likely the two car 195s will be cascaded to operate on quieter branch line routes which are unlikely to be electrified and don't need anything larger than a two car unit.

Given the number of 100mph units coming onto the second hand market shortly (170, 175, 185s), and the fact that Northern don't have many diesel services where the unit needs to get above 75mph, I think they might have been better off just getting some fast accelerating 75mph DMUs instead.

I wonder if either the corridor connection design wasn't available from CAF in early 2016, or Arriva's order has had to be so basic and no-frills that the cost of connections would have pushed the provincial envelope too far

Could well be right - the focus was too much on the number of new trains (even if those new trains are fairly basic, diesel-only, no corridor connection, only two or three coaches long) - it might have been better to order an equivalent number of coaches but as 35x four car bi-modes - but it's better PR to say "we've ordered seventy five new trains" because that makes for better headlines.

Off the top of my head, the only Connect route I can imagine would suffice with 2-car 195s is Sheffield to Lincoln - and even that's just off-peak, excluding the Leeds/Bradford stretch, and ignoring any potential increases in patronage.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport might also just cope outside the peaks, but I'm sure many of the standing passengers would much prefer the 2x156 convoy that we regularly see today.

True (although the Sheffield - Bradford service will be from Nottingham rather than from Lincoln AIUI)

Anywhere receiving a 195 (or, to be fair, any of the sprinters) in place of a Pacer is going to see an increase in capacity of maybe 25-30% with no change in the count of carriages

True, but generally the 195s are to replace 158s on routes like Nottingham - Leeds (Bradford), Lincoln - Leeds, Blackpool - York, Sheffield - Hull etc - there's not going to be much direct replacement of Pacers.

 

[Andyh82]

Two car units were ordered with the future in mind as well as now. In the future, I think it's highly likely the two car 195s will be cascaded to operate on quieter branch line routes which are unlikely to be electrified and don't need anything larger than a two car unit.

The problem is, these often spoke about quiet Northern branch lines don’t really exist. Almost all of them have some sort of busy element, becoming a inner surburban commuter run at one end, busy school flows, heavy loads at peak or shopping times etc etc.

Plus you are talking about two franchises on from now.

It just sounds to me it’ll be a way to turn good news into bad when the 195s enter service and loads turn up as 2 cars at busy times.

I don’t find non gangwayed stock being used as the norm in multiple very satisfactory either. It isn’t great for revenue protection, for trolley services, for ensuring passengers spread out throughout the train..

 

[Kneedown]

I can't believe drivers enjoy being stuck in a tiny cubicle with a poor view.

You're right, we don't (I don't,anyway!) Although I imagine the class 196 gangwayed cab will be luxury compared to a back and leg ache inducing 153 or 156, peripheral vision will still be poor, and to my mind Drivers comfort visibility should be the number one consideration. Discomfort leads to fatigue and loss of concentration, in a time when we are spending longer periods of time driving continuously.

 

[507021]

The problem is, these often spoke about quiet Northern branch lines don’t really exist. Almost all of them have some sort of busy element, becoming a inner surburban commuter run at one end, busy school flows, heavy loads at peak or shopping times etc etc.

I wasn't necessarily referring to branch lines in the North of England.

Plus you are talking about two franchises on from now.

Yes, because I would imagine the 195s and 331s will be in service for the next 30 years or so.

It just sounds to me it’ll be a way to turn good news into bad when the 195s enter service and loads turn up as 2 cars at busy times.

Just because two car units have been ordered does not mean they will always operate as two car units.

 

[craigybagel]

Given the number of 100mph units coming onto the second hand market shortly (170, 175, 185s), and the fact that Northern don't have many diesel services where the unit needs to get above 75mph, I think they might have been better off just getting some fast accelerating 75mph DMUs instead.

Almost all of the Northern connect routes will feature running above 75mph at some point of the journey. And I suspect, given the modern engines and 6 speed gearboxes that they'll still be quicker off the mark then the stock they're replacing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for speed, would the multi-speed gearbox enable a 195 to handle slow local workings better than older high-speed units like the 170s?

The Class 172 which has the same gearbox offers almost-EMU-like acceleration in a DMU without having to seriously overpower it (and thus waste fuel) in the manner of the 185. The irony of this is that it means they would actually be far better suited to Manchester area stopping DMU services than regional expresses which don't stop very often. (They won't be *bad* for those services, but those services won't use their capabilities to the best - they'd be better off putting them on local services and putting Classes 158 and 170 on Northern Connect instead!)

Mind you, the Class 172s appear not to be all spoken for once Brum has finished with them once their Civities turn up. With any sense, they should head up North as well so Sprinters (ironically named in 2018 terms) can be retired entirely and local stopping service timetables improved accordingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could well be right - the focus was too much on the number of new trains (even if those new trains are fairly basic, diesel-only, no corridor connection, only two or three coaches long) - it might have been better to order an equivalent number of coaches but as 35x four car bi-modes - but it's better PR to say "we've ordered seventy five new trains" because that makes for better headlines.

The number of vehicles rather than number of units tends to be quoted as it's bigger, so I doubt it's this.

 

[whhistle]

Not sure why you say "sadly with gangways" that to me is common sense. If they are regularly running units doubled up...

If a TOC is regularly running units doubled up, they're buying the wrong sorts of trains.

 

[PR1Berske]

A couple of photos from Velim today.

View attachment 52636 View attachment 52637

Given wear we are used to on Northern, these look like pure sci-fi in comparison. Bring them on!

 

[Philip]

Regarding the 2-car 195s, I suspect at least during the day time it'll be a case of services either running as single 3-car 195s or a pair of doubled up 195/0s to form a 4-coach train, with 5 and 6 coach formations appearing on the busier peak time services.

I think it's likely that at least one of the 172/175/185 clan will go to Northern to strengthen the Connect services and cascade Sprinters, when they go off-lease.

 

[AndyW33]

If a TOC is regularly running units doubled up, they're buying the wrong sorts of trains.

Unless of course, they're regularly running units doubled up for part of the day only or going in for portion working.
If the units come off depot doubled up and the exact same pairing returns to depot at night without splitting at any time then you're right of course - but is this what is planned?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I thought from recent full-windscreen MU orders (eg Northern and GA) that we had got out of the gangway era.
Apart from being downright unsightly, I can't believe drivers enjoy being stuck in a tiny cubicle with a poor view.
I believe is also can affect signal sighting so that can't be good for operation or railway costs.
Hardy any continental railways have MUs with corridor connections.
It doesn't seem to bother TPE with their 185s or ATW with their 175s.
The entire 5-car class 800 fleet is expected to double up without corridors, as are Voyagers.

Kelois's CAF Fleet will be joining /splitting multiple times a day at multiple locations - the Northern Connect fleets wont.

 

[tbtc]

Almost all of the Northern connect routes will feature running above 75mph at some point of the journey

True, but we have a franchise that has ordered 100mph 195s whilst putting 100mph poorly accelerating 170s on the Harrogate line (forty five minutes to do twenty two miles from Knaresborough to Leeds... average speed around thirty miles per hour?).

Plus we now know that there will be 185s and 175s and 172s on the second hand market - all of which can do 100mph - but that's the railway all over (not just Northern) - order snazzy fast trains for flagship routes then end up cascading them onto routes where they are less than ideal - so Central Trains order 100mph 170s for their "CityLink" routes then they end up on Rugely stoppers.

 

[lammergeier]

True, but we have a franchise that has ordered 100mph 195s whilst putting 100mph poorly accelerating 170s on the Harrogate line (forty five minutes to do twenty two miles from Knaresborough to Leeds... average speed around thirty miles per hour?).

Plus we now know that there will be 185s and 175s and 172s on the second hand market - all of which can do 100mph - but that's the railway all over (not just Northern) - order snazzy fast trains for flagship routes then end up cascading them onto routes where they are less than ideal - so Central Trains order 100mph 170s for their "CityLink" routes then they end up on Rugely stoppers.

I thought West Mids Rail were keeping all their 172s and the CAF stuff were to be used in addition?

 

[kje7812]

I thought West Mids Rail were keeping all their 172s and the CAF stuff were to be used in addition?

My impression was the new CAF units will replace the 170s on the Birmingham-Worcester/Hereford and Birmingham-Shrewsbury. They may also see some use on the Snow Hill lines as there are some 170+153 diagrams.

 

[whhistle]

Unless of course, they're regularly running units doubled up for part of the day only or going in for portion working.

Good point :P
As soon as I read the first 5 or 6 words, I thought about the Wales services splitting and joining all over the place.

 

[paddyb6]

Evening,
Is there a set, presumably 103, out tomorrow (26/9) ?
Thanks

 

[craigybagel]

True, but we have a franchise that has ordered 100mph 195s whilst putting 100mph poorly accelerating 170s on the Harrogate line (forty five minutes to do twenty two miles from Knaresborough to Leeds... average speed around thirty miles per hour?).

Plus we now know that there will be 185s and 175s and 172s on the second hand market - all of which can do 100mph - but that's the railway all over (not just Northern) - order snazzy fast trains for flagship routes then end up cascading them onto routes where they are less than ideal - so Central Trains order 100mph 170s for their "CityLink" routes then they end up on Rugely stoppers.

That's a fair point.

Would I be right in suggesting that the inter urban routes being proposed for the new units are much more profitable (or, given the nature of the Northern franchise, less loss making) then the slower stopping services for which 75mph units might have sufficed? If that is indeed the case, it would presumably be a much easier to persuade the DFT to invest in new fleets for those routes even though there are more available second hand units available for them then there are for the for the slower Mrs glamorous routes.

It's also worth pointing out that very few sub 100mph DMUs have been purchased since privitisation. In fact, other then the debateable examples of the Parry People Movers for Stourbridge and of course the Class 230s, I'm not sure I can think of any?! Even the 172s for London Overground were 100 mph units, despite the max speed on the routes they work never exceeding 50 IIRC.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's also worth pointing out that very few sub 100mph DMUs have been purchased since privitisation. In fact, other then the debateable examples of the Parry People Movers for Stourbridge and of course the Class 230s, I'm not sure I can think of any?! Even the 172s for London Overground were 100 mph units, despite the max speed on the routes they work never exceeding 50 IIRC.

Excluding 3rd rail stock, the only sub 100mph trains ordered since privatisation are the 139's, 66's & 70's.

 

[samuelmorris]

And 345s...

 

[tbtc]

That's a fair point.

Would I be right in suggesting that the inter urban routes being proposed for the new units are much more profitable (or, given the nature of the Northern franchise, less loss making) then the slower stopping services for which 75mph units might have sufficed? If that is indeed the case, it would presumably be a much easier to persuade the DFT to invest in new fleets for those routes even though there are more available second hand units available for them then there are for the for the slower Mrs glamorous routes.

It's also worth pointing out that very few sub 100mph DMUs have been purchased since privitisation. In fact, other then the debateable examples of the Parry People Movers for Stourbridge and of course the Class 230s, I'm not sure I can think of any?! Even the 172s for London Overground were 100 mph units, despite the max speed on the routes they work never exceeding 50 IIRC.

I think you are right - without claiming any insight into the finances of the Northern franchise (which may be complicated by how much they are reimbursed for some of the dirt cheap PTE fares etc), I suspect that your summary of persuading the DfT to give them the money for "flagship" routes is correct.

The "proper" InterCity services in northern England are operated by LNER/ Virgin/ XC, the b-list InterCity services are operated by TPE, so now we've created a c-list tier of services ("Northern Connect"), which become the flagship routes for the new Northern franchise. We can't possibly accept second hand trains for Northern Connect, so we order 100mph DMUs and stick poorly accelerating Turbostars on the Harrogate line, where they'll trundle along at an average of thirty miles per hour (forty five minutes to cover twenty two miles between Leeds and Knaresborough on the services they run), even though they really aren't suited to such slow stop/start services.

Meanwhile Northern continue to operate services where faster acceleration would remove conflict with longer distance services (Sheffield - Moorthorpe - Leeds, Hope Valley service) - having "basic" DMUs able to knock thirty seconds off each station stop would be very welcome - but it's apparently more important to have more 100mph stock.

It's the same in the bus world, where operators want to order snazzy vehicles like the ftr (or buses powered by poo or whatnot) - far too much focus on new vehicles on flagship services and not enough attention paid to the "whole life". Maybe that's excusable for TOCs, given that they are only operating the new trains for the first five years of their life (before the contract ends), but something to think about when stuck on a poorly performing Northern 170 that feels like it should be running along a racecourse rather than doing donkey rides on Blackpool beach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, the idea of Northern Connect is not new - Regional Railways North West operated "NorthWest Express", which is the core of these new routes - the Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere expresses (plus the North Wales LHCS). Those used "green stripe" Class 156s, which weren't the best stock NWRR had (they had some 158s at that point) but were quite well suited.

Re the Class 170s, though, I do see your point. Classes 158 and 170 could have been used for Northern Connect with a quality refurb, new Chiltern-type air cooling for the 158s and new Grammer IC3000 seating or similar (not ironing boards). Then something directly suitable for Pacer replacement could have been ordered from CAF - most probably a 75mph doors-at-thirds DMU with a mechanical gearbox.

Could Class 170s perhaps receive a replacement transmission to make them more suitable for stopping services? Does the Class 172 gearbox fit directly, perhaps? Could they at that point be geared down to 75mph? There's nowt wrong with the bodyshell and interior for those services; the very similar Class 172s are just fine for the diesel suburban stopping services from Snow Hill.

 

[tomuk]

To be fair, the idea of Northern Connect is not new - Regional Railways North West operated "NorthWest Express", which is the core of these new routes - the Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere expresses (plus the North Wales LHCS). Those used "green stripe" Class 156s, which weren't the best stock NWRR had (they had some 158s at that point) but were quite well suited.

Re the Class 170s, though, I do see your point. Classes 158 and 170 could have been used for Northern Connect with a quality refurb, new Chiltern-type air cooling for the 158s and new Grammer IC3000 seating or similar (not ironing boards). Then something directly suitable for Pacer replacement could have been ordered from CAF - most probably a 75mph doors-at-thirds DMU with a mechanical gearbox.

Could Class 170s perhaps receive a replacement transmission to make them more suitable for stopping services? Does the Class 172 gearbox fit directly, perhaps? Could they at that point be geared down to 75mph? There's nowt wrong with the bodyshell and interior for those services; the very similar Class 172s are just fine for the diesel suburban stopping services from Snow Hill.

Porterbrook and Rolls-Royce/MTU have agreed to try out a new hybrid power pack on a 170. This includes an updated MTU diesel, a 6 speed ZF box (similar to 172), a 200kw electric motor and a pair of 30KWh battery packs. These can be fitted to 168 and 170. You could if you wanted just retro fit the current version of the non-hybrid power pack to 170s/168s. The same powerpacks would probably fit on 165/166s and even 158s with a bit more effort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Porterbrook and Rolls-Royce/MTU have agreed to try out a new hybrid power pack on a 170. This includes an updated MTU diesel, a 6 speed ZF box (similar to 172), a 200kw electric motor and a pair of 30KWh battery packs. These can be fitted to 168 and 170. You could if you wanted just retro fit the current version of the non-hybrid power pack to 170s/168s. The same powerpacks would probably fit on 165/166s and even 158s with a bit more effort.

SWT have already fitted a Class 159 with a 6 speed ZF box, though I thought I heard it had been swapped back as it didn't give the fuel economy improvements expected, so refitting the whole fleet would not be cost effective. However, the routes they operate on aren't low speed local stopping services, the length of runs between stations is much longer, so that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for Northern.

 

[gsnedders]

Could Class 170s perhaps receive a replacement transmission to make them more suitable for stopping services? Does the Class 172 gearbox fit directly, perhaps? Could they at that point be geared down to 75mph? There's nowt wrong with the bodyshell and interior for those services; the very similar Class 172s are just fine for the diesel suburban stopping services from Snow Hill.

In principle, gearing it down should just be a matter of changing the final drive (gear), which shouldn't be hard.