Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[Bletchleyite]

Saying that Siemens air con is less intrusive is showing your fanboi tendencies there I’m afraid. The 350 aircon is very intrusive, I can’t think of a more intrusive system on any system at all on our system.

It's probably a personal thing but I can easily tune out a constant white noise as you get on Desiros and Pendolinos but not whining or changing sounds.

I seem to recall quite a few people talking about the pendo being cheap Italian junk on this forum, and they are still going strong. General consensus is that most people seem quite happy with them.

I quite like Pendolinos. Swapping to one at Lancaster yesterday was certainly an upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, its not unfair. I'm afraid I see you as a Northern hater, nothing they could do would ever gain your approval in my opinion.

I do dislike the TOC and their owning company intensely, yes; they are grossly and institutionally incompetent. This maybe does cloud things, but it doesn't mean I hate all their rolling stock. Apart from the use of cheap materials (again) you might recall me speaking highly of the Northern Connect-ised Class 158 a month or two ago - I had expected the 195 to be as good - it isn't.

I certainly don't like the interior scheme Northern are using as their theme - it's brash, harsh and jarring. But I wouldn't like these if they had an interior more to my taste like the TPE 185 refurb or Class 350/1 dark blue.

The 195s (and the 331s for that matter) are a world of difference from anything that the franchise has had

They are, but it doesn't make them good. It makes them tolerable. They are OK. Acceptable. Ish. They are still a case of Northern getting a third-rate unit designed and built on the cheap with no attention to detail whatsoever - they simply do not sparkle unless you're jaded by years of Class 142s and 150s. They're good by 1990 standards, they are not good by 2019 standards. And they aren't even technologically good - they're a DMU with a mechanical transmission - early 2000s tech - not even a modern bi-mode.

 

[Mordac]

I'm surprised people are complaining about the noise, because you can hardly hear anything in the NIR units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised people are complaining about the noise, because you can hardly hear anything in the NIR units.

Maybe the one I rode was a dud, but engine noise was about the same as a 158 in both the type of sounds and the level.

 

[samuelmorris]

I prefer the idea that I have high standards - which are often met in other countries but so often not in the UK. Why should one not have high standards in life? Why, when spending millions of pounds, should attention to detail not be got right? Why should we accept classic British mediocrity?

Back to 195s or comparisons with them - got on a Scottish 170 this morning - while they could do with the large 195 style overhead racks they are a superior unit in the vast majority of ways. It would certainly add to my view that Northern Connect should use 170s and 158s, and the new units go on local stopping services directly replacing classes 142 to 156.

Criticism of their specification aside, that is really the right thing to do anyway - the 170s are having issues running stopping services whereas the 195s with better acceleration will be much more suited to these. If the Northern Connect services do actually materialise, 170s are in fact better units for the job.

No, its not unfair. I'm afraid I see you as a Northern hater, nothing they could do would ever gain your approval in my opinion.

Saying that Siemens air con is less intrusive is showing your fanboi tendencies there I’m afraid. .

At the risk of sounding like the Bletchleyite fan club, this is a bit over the top. All I saw was objective, detailed opinion. Yes, there are criticisms of things a lot of passengers aren't going to notice, but that's going to be true of any review if it's detailed enough.

The 195s and 331s are worlds apart from what they will likely be replacing, yes, but if you are reviewing them objectively that's irrelevant. How do they stack up to trains in the rest of the country? "Meh, they're alright" seems to be the gist of his post. Saying "they're good considering they're at Northern" is being more anti-Northern than his review was!

The 350 aircon is very intrusive, I can’t think of a more intrusive system on any system at all on our system.

I'd have to disagree with you there - it's almost certainly the loudest, but that's not the same as most intrusive. It's broadband noise that rarely changes even slightly unless it's very hot outside and it changes to high speed. As long as it isn't so loud it prevents conversation (which it isn't on the Desiro UK) then being broadband noise means you can easily tune it out on a long journey. Something that powers up and down every couple of minutes as it seems to on 195s (It really does sound like compressor noise, I'm amazed that's actually A/C noise) is never going to pass unnoticed, and thus be more intrusive.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do dislike the TOC and their owning company intensely, yes; they are grossly and institutionally incompetent. This maybe does cloud things, but it doesn't mean I hate all their rolling stock. Apart from the use of cheap materials (again) you might recall me speaking highly of the Northern Connect-ised Class 158 a month or two ago - I had expected the 195 to be as good - it isn't.

I certainly don't like the interior scheme Northern are using as their theme - it's brash, harsh and jarring. But I wouldn't like these if they had an interior more to my taste like the TPE 185 refurb or Class 350/1 dark blue.



They are, but it doesn't make them good. It makes them tolerable. They are OK. Acceptable. Ish. They are still a case of Northern getting a third-rate unit designed and built on the cheap with no attention to detail whatsoever - they simply do not sparkle unless you're jaded by years of Class 142s and 150s. They're good by 1990 standards, they are not good by 2019 standards. And they aren't even technologically good - they're a DMU with a mechanical transmission - early 2000s tech - not even a modern bi-mode.

I'm sure you are not surprised by this but I disagree. I think they are really quite good, and I do think your opinion on the operator does cloud your judgement I'm afraid. Having been on both of the new classes, I am looking forward to being able to ride them more regularly. I know a lot of people think Northern are useless, but as a very regular user of them (up to 4 times a day) I don't think they are anything as bad as people like to make out, I know there are still problems around the centre of the universe, sorry I meant Manchester, but my experience circa 2019 is nothing to really complain about. They get me from home to office, home to football ground, home to wherever I happen to be going with my better half when I want to be there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure you are not surprised by this but I disagree. I think they are really quite good, and I do think your opinion on the operator does cloud your judgement I'm afraid. Having been on both of the new classes, I am looking forward to being able to ride them more regularly. I know a lot of people think Northern are useless, but as a very regular user of them (up to 4 times a day) I don't think they are anything as bad as people like to make out, I know there are still problems around the centre of the universe, sorry I meant Manchester, but my experience circa 2019 is nothing to really complain about. They get me from home to office, home to football ground, home to wherever I happen to be going with my better half when I want to be there.

I think, assuming the WCML work this weekend doesn't affect the diagrams (shall post that question on that thread), I might be able to work out my journey back on Sunday to get another ride on one. If so, I'll see if they grow on me - I've found that Class 80x have very much done so, particularly where the seats have been improved by the fitting of moquette (which seems to make far more difference than it logically should).

I genuinely don't think my dislike of Arriva and Northern as organisations do impact my view on them. I also quite intensely dislike the present London Northwestern operation, but it doesn't mean all of a sudden I hate Class 350s, nor does it really inform my view on the new Bombardier stock they have ordered. I do certainly dislike the interior scheme (which is standard across Northern stock) and that will certainly inform my view negatively - and that is personal opinion, as for all I think Pendolinos have a great interior scheme there's as many people who consider them dull and dowdy - but I just can't forgive the huge heating conduit taking up all my legroom on a low-density 2+2 unit, nor the total lack of window alignment, nor the engine noise and things like that. They're things that aren't a problem (or as much of one) on classes 170 and 172, and they didn't need to be a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 195s and 331s are worlds apart from what they will likely be replacing, yes, but if you are reviewing them objectively that's irrelevant. How do they stack up to trains in the rest of the country? "Meh, they're alright" seems to be the gist of his post. Saying "they're good considering they're at Northern" is being more anti-Northern than his review was!

Well, quite. I indeed think they're OK, acceptable, average, a bit mediocre maybe. They will do the job, they are cheap capacity. They are better than classes 142-156. But they absolutely don't sparkle compared with what else is out there. From what people were saying I'd genuinely expected they would. Perhaps it was stepping aboard with high expectations only to quickly notice a couple of nasty design flaws (the heating conduit being the most significant) and a claustrophobic feel that put a downer on it.

As for the review, I was going for the same level of detail as my review some months ago of the Class 230 - just a load of thoughts, not all of them major!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The PIS on the new units is far clearer than anything on any UK train thus far, and if something like connection information could be included in the future (as @Bletchleyite suggested and as DB ICEs do) this would be a good touch (though our fragmented system would make it tricky as it would be rare for connections to be held).

However I don't think there's been a lack of attention to detail, quite the opposite. Clearly they've been built to a cost, but little touches like the vestibules being wider than the doors, and the resulting tip-up seats that can actually be used if you're going more than one stop, are a brilliant idea. Considering the recent thread about the appalling legroom on some of the legacy fleet, legroom is pretty good too (I'm only average height but it's all in my legs).

 

[samuelmorris]

I really think it is because if you're used to travelling on Northern pre-privatisation DMUs, it's hard to get away from how much of an improvement that is. That said, everybody has their own opinions about a lot of this stuff, I actually don't mind the new Northern colour scheme (though I think I prefer what came before it, would have liked to have seen what a new unit would have looked like in it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

However I don't think there's been a lack of attention to detail, quite the opposite. Clearly they've been built to a cost, but little touches like the vestibules being wider than the doors, and the resulting tip-up seats that can actually be used if you're going more than one stop, are a brilliant idea.

The wider vestibules probably make sense for trains that will, even with the best of intentions, be overcrowded at least some of the time. But putting a tip-up seat in them totally ruins the concept, as if the train is busy (by "busy" I mean there is one person in every pair of seats) somebody will be sitting there, rendering it useless for standback purposes. If they were going to fit a tip-up, they might as well just have fitted a pair of airline seats at one end and shuffled everything along - at least if they had the seats would be aligned to the windows (as they are bay-sized windows - the seats just aren't lined up with them).

I think what Thameslink did with similar areas on the 700s is better - luggage racks in half of them and standbacks without a tip-up seat in the other half.

Of course this is quite easy to resolve - remove the seat and fit a luggage rack on one side by each door. This would be a significant improvement, particularly for the Airport runs.

Regarding legroom, this is a benefit of ironing board seating, as it's very upright (so a long lower leg doesn't mean you clout the raked-back seat like you do in an original 158) and the backs are about 1" thick rather than over 3" for Chapmans or original 158 seating. If you get a chance to ride a Northern Connect-ised 158, these have the original seating layout, pretty much (nearly all window aligned) but the legroom is exceptionally good as a result.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The wider vestibules probably make sense for trains that will, even with the best of intentions, be overcrowded at least some of the time. But putting a tip-up seat in them totally ruins the concept, as if the train is busy (by "busy" I mean there is one person in every pair of seats) somebody will be sitting there, rendering it useless for standback purposes. If they were going to fit a tip-up, they might as well just have fitted a pair of airline seats at one end and shuffled everything along - at least if they had the seats would be aligned to the windows (as they are bay-sized windows - the seats just aren't lined up with them).

I think what Thameslink did with similar areas on the 700s is better - luggage racks in half of them and standbacks without a tip-up seat in the other half.

Of course this is quite easy to resolve - remove the seat and fit a luggage rack on one side by each door. This would be a significant improvement, particularly for the Airport runs.

Regarding legroom, this is a benefit of ironing board seating, as it's very upright (so a long lower leg doesn't mean you clout the raked-back seat like you do in an original 158) and the backs are about 1" thick rather than over 3" for Chapmans or original 158 seating. If you get a chance to ride a Northern Connect-ised 158, these have the original seating layout, pretty much (nearly all window aligned) but the legroom is exceptionally good as a result.

Well yes, but that's not what the tip-up seats are for. If the train is full and standing then tip-up seats are inefficient space wise (just as they are in the wheelchair area on buses), but if the train is reasonably busy without being rammed and you're going a few stops with bags, it's easier to stay in the vestibule in a folding seat.

The old-fashioned way we did tip-up seats as seen on Mk4s and 158s among others was completely pointless, as you'd be blocking the doors. The set up on the 195s and 331s is far better. The wider vestibules allow circulation space meaning people can get out without half the standees having to also step onto the platform.

Just as folding seats on buses are generally unused once the service gets really full because most people don't like being crotch-height with complete strangers, the same will apply with these units. The "Ballroom" of 185s is another area where this can be observed: once the area becomes a bit of a tight squeeze, those who were seated will often switch to standing if they are able.

 

[samuelmorris]

The old-fashioned way we did tip-up seats as seen on Mk4s and 158s among others was completely pointless, as you'd be blocking the doors. The set up on the 195s and 331s is far better. The wider vestibules allow circulation space meaning people can get out without half the standees having to also step onto the platform.

Fair, but I did once enjoy my private vestibule on a non-stop GC 180 from York to Kings Cross

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The PIS on the new units is far clearer than anything on any UK train thus far, and if something like connection information could be included in the future (as @Bletchleyite suggested and as DB ICEs do) this would be a good touch (though our fragmented system would make it tricky as it would be rare for connections to be held).

The PIS on 700s is similar to the 195s, and TPE has similar on its refurbished 185s (and presumably on its new trains).
But I do agree about the DB PIS (also on OBB's RailJets, which include live speed).
Those railways also include manual conductor announcements of connections and platforms, something that is very rare to non-existent in the UK.

In all the recent posts, I'm surprised the 195 ride quality has not figured more prominently.
I find it hard and noisy, particularly over S&C, and far below 350/390 standards over the same WCML tracks.
Against that, the internal ambience is pretty much fine for me.

 

[Greybeard33]

Definitely wasn't quiet when I was on it. Perhaps there was a fault with the engine mountings of some kind? The engine was very noticeable with pronounced turbo whistle and the kind of transmission whine you get on 158s at a similar level.

My impression, from riding on several units in various seats, is that the engine/transmission noise is considerably less than on a 185, 221 or any 15x, and is comparable with EMU motor/transformer noise. It is only noticeable when sitting near the middle of the carriage. Towards the ends it is drowned out by the bogie noises, to the extent that I found it difficult to hear the gear changes.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think, assuming the WCML work this weekend doesn't affect the diagrams (shall post that question on that thread), I might be able to work out my journey back on Sunday to get another ride on one. If so, I'll see if they grow on me - I've found that Class 80x have very much done so, particularly where the seats have been improved by the fitting of moquette (which seems to make far more difference than it logically should).

I genuinely don't think my dislike of Arriva and Northern as organisations do impact my view on them. I also quite intensely dislike the present London Northwestern operation, but it doesn't mean all of a sudden I hate Class 350s, nor does it really inform my view on the new Bombardier stock they have ordered. I do certainly dislike the interior scheme (which is standard across Northern stock) and that will certainly inform my view negatively - and that is personal opinion, as for all I think Pendolinos have a great interior scheme there's as many people who consider them dull and dowdy - but I just can't forgive the huge heating conduit taking up all my legroom on a low-density 2+2 unit, nor the total lack of window alignment, nor the engine noise and things like that. They're things that aren't a problem (or as much of one) on classes 170 and 172, and they didn't need to be a problem.

To put it bluntly, I didn't notice or care about these problems that seem to have annoyed you so. Neither will the vast majority of Northern passengers that will use these CAF units.

My experience was of much better quality units that are comfortable, spacious, and very quick off their feet. Exactly what the franchise needs to help attract more passengers to use their services more often, so as to increase revenue and to reduce the need for subsidies.

But the good news is that you won't have to suffer these units too much, you've got your lovely converted charabancs to play with. We common folk 'oop North will have to suffer with our below par, brand new, air conditioned trains. Oh woe is we, pity the poor North....

 

[Chris217]

Round 2 anyone?

Ha,the dangers of having an opinion!

 

[krus_aragon]

Round 2 anyone?

Ha,the dangers of having an opinion!

I suggest convening round 2 in Shotton in two or three years' time: 230s on the high level platforms, and TfW 19x'es on the low level!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suggest convening round 2 in Shotton in two or three years' time: 230s on the high level platforms, and TfW 19x'es on the low level!

Crikey, I know some don't like my criticisms, but what have I done to deserve having to go to Shotton?

(Last time I went there - to escort my younger sister and her friend to the skating rink on the promise of a paid-for train ride - was the day of the IRA non-bomb at Aintree races...)

 

[86247]

it's about time we in northern land got new air conditioned trains we have had to put up with buses on rails for long enough these weren't to suppose to last this long in service if it was to government or the dft we would have never got new trains at all

 

[js1000]

To put it bluntly, I didn't notice or care about these problems that seem to have annoyed you so. Neither will the vast majority of Northern passengers that will use these CAF units.

My experience was of much better quality units that are comfortable, spacious, and very quick off their feet. Exactly what the franchise needs to help attract more passengers to use their services more often, so as to increase revenue and to reduce the need for subsidies.

But the good news is that you won't have to suffer these units too much, you've got your lovely converted charabancs to play with. We common folk 'oop North will have to suffer with our below par, brand new, air conditioned trains. Oh woe is we, pity the poor North....

Really don't know how anyone can complain about the 195s when comparing the unit with what it is replacing. As you say, Joe Public won't care - all they see is a new, spacious and clean train - everything the Pacers and 150s are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really don't know how anyone can complain about the 195s when comparing the unit with what it is replacing. As you say, Joe Public won't care - all they see is a new, spacious and clean train - everything the Pacers and 150s are not.

I reviewed them as compared against other rolling stock I've experienced, not the outdated old 15x they are replacing on Northern.

Of course if you are used to an uncomfortable, noisy, non-aircon 150 with no seats aligned to the windows at all you'll love them.

It's slightly odd that we seem to have moved on from "nobody can suggest palming off old South East stock to the North" all the way to "nobody can justify criticism of 195s just because they are better than 150s".

Yes, they're better than 150s, but they are not as good as they could have been with a little thought into the design. The window alignment, for instance, is just lazy (just like it is on 80x, or like the way on a Voyager/Pendolino, I forget which, you've got a luggage rack by a window then a blank wall next to an adjacent seat) as it could be fixed with minor tweaks and no capacity reduction.

 

[samuelmorris]

Really don't know how anyone can complain about the 195s when comparing the unit with what it is replacing. As you say, Joe Public won't care - all they see is a new, spacious and clean train - everything the Pacers and 150s are not.

Irrelevant. People clamouring for decent trains in the North are now basically referring to them as "well they're good considering they're in the North". Why should it matter?

 

[td97]

That's a long delay! Will there be many more introduced on those dates?

9 per month is (was?) the plan.

Engine noise very bad for a modern unit

I included in my review that the engines were a generation ahead of a 185, due to being quieter and also without random engine startups or loud revving when idle at stations. Admittedly perhaps not as refined as a Voyager though, which despite being one of the loudest trains from an exterior point of view are actually one of the quietest DMUs to ride on.

not the outdated old 15x they are replacing on Northern.

All of the initial 195 routes are replacing 185s, not 15x (which were effectively a short-term stop-gap).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I included in my review that the engines were a generation ahead of a 185, due to being quieter and also without random engine startups or loud revving when idle at stations.

Smaller too. But I somehow found them more disruptive. I think it is the Class 158 like transmission whine (4 hours of which to Exeter was enough to have me coughing up to go back on GWR instead) and the loud turbo whistle.

Admittedly perhaps not as refined as a Voyager though, which despite being one of the loudest trains from an exterior point of view are actually one of the quietest DMUs to ride on.

I'd say 80x is the benchmark now, you can barely hear them at all. If you weren't listening out for it it'd be impossible to know if you were on OHLE or diesel.

You can hear and feel the Class 57 on the front of the Riviera from the seated coaches (front two) far more loudly than the underfloors on 80x. That's getting underfloor engines right.

 

[Bovverboy]

All of the initial 195 routes are replacing 185s, not 15x (which were effectively a short-term stop-gap).

185s last ran on Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere in May this year, I believe, but after they began to be returned to TPE they did not provide the full service, 156s were used as well. It could be said that the very last 185s were replaced by 158s, certainly, but 156s were still being used, too. Now that 195s have been introduced the traction is a mixture of 156, 158, and 195. More 195s may come on stream next month.

On the Manchester Airport to Liverpool service the 195s have mainly replaced 156s, but 142s and 150s had been regularly in use, also. There is still a minimum of one diagram Mons/Fris, and three Suns, which are covered by non-195s, usually 156s, but to a lesser degree 150s. I haven't seen a 142 on the route just lately.

 

[fowler9]

I prefer the idea that I have high standards - which are often met in other countries but so often not in the UK. Why should one not have high standards in life? Why, when spending millions of pounds, should attention to detail not be got right? Why should we accept classic British mediocrity?

Back to 195s or comparisons with them - got on a Scottish 170 this morning - while they could do with the large 195 style overhead racks they are a superior unit in the vast majority of ways. It would certainly add to my view that Northern Connect should use 170s and 158s, and the new units go on local stopping services directly replacing classes 142 to 156.

Certainly on the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services they replaced 142's to 156's. I don't think the Airport to Barrows were 170's or 158's either.

 

[fowler9]

9 per month is (was?) the plan.

I included in my review that the engines were a generation ahead of a 185, due to being quieter and also without random engine startups or loud revving when idle at stations. Admittedly perhaps not as refined as a Voyager though, which despite being one of the loudest trains from an exterior point of view are actually one of the quietest DMUs to ride on.

All of the initial 195 routes are replacing 185s, not 15x (which were effectively a short-term stop-gap).

When was the last time a Manchester Airport to Lime Street service was a 185? The week before the 195's came on tap I had a single 142 on the service.

 

[Bovverboy]

When was the last time a Manchester Airport to Lime Street service was a 185? The week before the 195's came on tap I had a single 142 on the service.

185s have only ever operated for TPE, except when a few were hired to Northern after the Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services were transferred from TPE. They last worked over the CLC route in (I think) May 2018 when the TPE service from Liverpool to (mainly) Scarborough was replaced by the Northern Liverpool to Manchester Airport service. It follows that 185s have never worked between Liverpool and Manchester Airport.

 

[td97]

They last worked over the CLC route in (I think) May 2018 when the TPE service from Liverpool to (mainly) Scarborough was replaced by the Northern Liverpool to Manchester Airport service. It follows that 185s have never worked between Liverpool and Manchester Airport.

Exactly this. The ex TPE Liverpool via Warrington Central service which was replaced by the Northern Airport service (with the Manchester destinations are slightly adjusted).