Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[evoluzione]

As I understand it, 195s are not being scheduled to run services between Manchester and Wigan Wallgate, so why are Wigan Wallgate crews being trained on them at this stage?

AFAIK It’s not just Wigan crew being trained at Wigan.

 

[Defiance149]

Has anyone seen 195101 at Edge Hill? There was a road move of three cars from CAF Newport in late May and I'm pretty sure it was this, having been hiding in South Wales since January.

 

[Mountain Man]

There has been at least one, sometimes more in Barrow for weeks now.

 

[175001]

AFAIK It’s not just Wigan crew being trained at Wigan.

Correct

 

[Harvey B]

Copied from the 'class 323 staying at Northern thread':
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ow-go-to-northern.161365/page-16#post-4061280

The first 195s are due to enter service in July on Manchester Airport to Barrow

 

[Grannyjoans]

As I understand it, 195s are not being scheduled to run services between Manchester and Wigan Wallgate, so why are Wigan Wallgate crews being trained on
them at this stage?

Wigan Wallgate do a lot more routes than Manchester to Wigan Wallgate and will be one of the first depots to have booked work on 195s.

 

[Grannyjoans]

195114 moved from Barrow C.S. to Newton Heath TMD today on 5J00, I captured and recorded it at Salford Central. A warning with the video, the squeaky breaks are VERY loud, watch on low volume

Bloody hell are they all that loud ??

A lot of modern DMU's - 180's being the best example - are very loud (both the brakes and the engines) and can make station environments quite unpleasant

 

[scrapy]

Wigan Wallgate do a lot more routes than Manchester to Wigan Wallgate and will be one of the first depots to have booked work on 195s.

Yes they sign the full route from Barrow to Manchester Airport. Which is likely to be the first 195 route. They also sign Liverpool to Manchester Victoria, Blackpool to Manchester Airport both routes that will have 331/195 work.

 

[507021]

195123 is en-route to Edge Hill, credit to Richard Clinnick on Twitter.

 

[HUY2ROB]

195123 is en-route to Edge Hill, credit to Richard Clinnick on Twitter.

I saw 102 123 on a lorry in Hillfoot Avenue (L25 ) ,not far from Allerton at about 1-30 pm .

 

[childwallblues]

I saw 102 123 on a lorry in Hillfoot Avenue (L25 ) ,not far from Allerton at about 1-30 pm .

Normal delivery route to Edge Hill Depot.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Normal delivery route to Edge Hill Depot.

So still not trusted by rail then!

 

[JonathanH]

Running somewhere like Barrow where the Saturday service is not materially different to the weekday service suggests that they may run at the weekend from introduction rather than have a spell of weekday only running. Is this a reasonable assumption to make?

 

[samuelmorris]

Running somewhere like Barrow where the Saturday service is not materially different to the weekday service suggests that they may run at the weekend from introduction rather than have a spell of weekday only running. Is this a reasonable assumption to make?

Depends if there are enough drivers who work that route who are trained up to have some to cover weekends from the off. Not something I'd assume.

 

[JonathanH]

Depends if there are enough drivers who work that route who are trained up to have some to cover weekends from the off. Not something I'd assume.

Yes, I agree but if a 195 ends overnight at Barrow on Friday surely it is needed for Saturday service unless enough other units end there such that the 195 can sit spare over the weekend.

The situation is obviously different in other parts of the country where trains are shorter and less frequent at weekends relative to weekdays.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Hi all, very long time reader but finally my first post. As a long time traveller from London to Millom cumbria (37 years and counting) I wondered what the likelihood of these trains ever being cleared or working north of Barrow. I suspect zero but wanted to ask

 

[Mathew S]

Hi all, very long time reader but finally my first post. As a long time traveller from London to Millom cumbria (37 years and counting) I wondered what the likelihood of these trains ever being cleared or working north of Barrow. I suspect zero but wanted to ask

Yeah, I would agree pretty much zero, I'm afraid, at least for a good while. On a positive note, at least you should see the end of Pacers soon.
And welcome to the forum

 

[Paul_10]

Yeah, I would agree pretty much zero, I'm afraid, at least for a good while. On a positive note, at least you should see the end of Pacers soon.
And welcome to the forum

Well considering these trains later on in their life are intended to pass onto lines that are unlikely to be electrified in the future and the Cumbrian coast no doubt is one of them, you like to think a 195 would be able to operate on it without any gauging issues. All that said that is a long way off so who knows what stock will operate that line when the 156s eventually retires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well considering these trains later on in their life are intended to pass onto lines that are unlikely to be electrified in the future and the Cumbrian coast no doubt is one of them, you like to think a 195 would be able to operate on it without any gauging issues. All that said that is a long way off so who knows what stock will operate that line when the 156s eventually retires.

Or if the line will even survive. Rising sea levels will pose an increasing threat, while Sellafield isn't going to be open forever and that's the main reason for keeping it, at least between Barrow and Whitehaven.

 

[scrapy]

Yes, I agree but if a 195 ends overnight at Barrow on Friday surely it is needed for Saturday service unless enough other units end there such that the 195 can sit spare over the weekend.

The situation is obviously different in other parts of the country where trains are shorter and less frequent at weekends relative to weekdays.

There's every chance they will be cleared if line is suitable for them, even if just to do the Millom evening trains in case they are the only unit available.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

How long will it be before it becomes apparent that 2 car 195’s will be inadequate and why are 2 car units allowed to be ordered in this day and age? The 3 car sets will quickly go over capacity I suspect too, 4 car units should have been ordered initially.

Is it likely we’ll see 2 sets of 2 car 195’s coupled together or extended to a minimum of 3 in the future?

 

[Spartacus]

Possibly, but remember, money only goes so far, and there will be a lot of services where a proper length 2 car train will still be perfectly good for a good while to come.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly, but remember, money only goes so far, and there will be a lot of services where a proper length 2 car train will still be perfectly good for a good while to come.

True, but then if you were going to run the 2s as part of 4-car or 5-car formations for now, where's the gangways?

To me WMT have got this one right and Northern not.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

That’s true but you know how it is, when the service improves the passenger numbers also grow.

Also, long time lurker here, finally decided to make an account and become a member!

 

[Chester1]

That’s true but you know how it is, when the service improves the passenger numbers also grow.

Also, long time lurker here, finally decided to make an account and become a member!

Welcome to the site!

2 car units have been ordered because the financial outlook for DMUs in the long term is very poor. To support the cost of manufacture a unit needs to be in service about 30 years. By 2050 the government wants zero net carbon emissions and while that target would have allowed all 195s ordered by Northern to have 30 years of service, there is a huge risk of future governments placing further limits on diesel power. Bi modes are more expensive but will be fine to use regardless of future policy changes. I don't think the 195s will have enough capacity but it will be a problem that will not be resolved during this franchise and not by more coaches or new DMUs. No company (or branch of the government) will be prepared to finance them. The 195s and TfWs 196 version will most likely be the last DMUs ordered in the UK. Bi modes, battery EMUs and hopefully more electrification instead.

Adapting EMUs might work in the short term. 769 project has become a farce but could still produce a decent unit. Porterbook has a battery class 350 project which with sufficient range and the right internal refurb would be suitable for some Northern Connect routes. At 80 metres they would have more capacity than 2 or 3 coach 195s (46m and 69m).

 

[samuelmorris]

I do hold out hope for the BatteryFlex idea, if only because it gives a future use to units withdrawn absurdly early, but I suspect it will probably have a similar germination time to the 769 project - it's similarly complex and being run by the same ROSCO, so similar contractors will probably be involved. As the 350/2s aren't going off-lease until the 730s arrive, which are also very likely to be delayed, it's probably going to be near enough 2025 before a BatteryFlex unit sees commercial operation. By that time, the next Northern franchise will be looming, if privatisation is even still on the agenda by that point.

 

[ScottGallagher]

There's every chance they will be cleared if line is suitable for them, even if just to do the Millom evening trains in case they are the only unit available.

That was my thinking and would be logical, but as this is Northern it probably wont happen. I will add that since Arriva took over Northern (strikes aside) the service on the line has been dreadful, the only saving grace is the delay repay!!

 

[ScottGallagher]

Yeah, I would agree pretty much zero, I'm afraid, at least for a good while. On a positive note, at least you should see the end of Pacers soon.
And welcome to the forum

Thanks Mathew, its funny though in my last few trips I havent seen a pacer, i dont actually mind them too much, they have a certian odd charm, but one guard told me they were detested.

 

[evoluzione]

Thanks Mathew, its funny though in my last few trips I havent seen a pacer, i dont actually mind them too much, they have a certian odd charm, but one guard told me they were detested.

As someone who regular drives pacers, I’ll actually miss them when they go especially 142’s, they are actually very reliable.

I’ve never had one totally fail on me requiring assistance.

I’ve always been able to fix the fault or at least get it moving to a suitable place for the passengers to be detrained and the unit taken out of service.

Yes cab access for us is a real pain when full and standing but a smile and a bit of banter generally works, they pick their wheels at the first sign of a fallen leaf but I really like driving them.

And you can’t beat the look on commuters faces when you roll in with a single one instead of the nice 4 car set of something else they are used to travelling on

 

[L+Y]

Does anybody know how training is progressing on the 195/331 fleets?

Seem to remember seeing a July date for expected entry into service, but I could be confusing this with any number of other new fleets!