Northern City Line not fit for purpose

[ijmad]

It seems there is an instinct among people at the moment that everything must be a crossrail! but it's never likely to happen for Moorgate given all the constraints discussed. Moorgate is becoming a decently useful interchange, it will have Crossrail and the SSL and the Northern line, and if you count them up it's on a par with Farringdon in terms of total trains per hour. There's no reason why it doesn't make sense as a terminus. It may even get a DLR extension at some future point, or perhaps some other clever re-use of the widened lines.

So rather than a ludicrously expensive southern extension, spend more sensible money renovating Moorgate and Finsbury Park; modernise Essex Road and Drayton Park; fit ETCS/ERTMS and build platforms at Stevenage so more services can run that far via Hertford North (and maybe even as far as Cambridge?), and rationalise the timetable so services are faster, more segregated and more self-contained, thus more attractive for commuters in to London.

Oh, and give it to London Overground to run.

 

[D365]

There's no reason why it doesn't make sense as a terminus. It may even get a DLR extension at some future point, or perhaps some other clever re-use of the widened lines.

I'll agree that Moorgate will always remain a terminus for Great Northern. But Moorgate trains won't operate any further north than they do now.

And the Widened Lines are being converted to LU sidings, that will be the extent of their reuse.

 

[ijmad]

I'll agree that Moorgate will always remain a terminus for Great Northern. But Moorgate trains won't operate any further north than they do now.

And the Widened Lines are being converted to LU sidings, that will be the extent of their reuse.

The suggestion in the Horizon Study is that only the Widened Lines section leading in to Barbican and its former platforms would be used, and that Moorgate would have a new, deep level DLR station to take pressure off Bank. I wasn't sure which sections LU are going to use for sidings, whether it was the whole thing, or just the parts closer to Moorgate.

 

[adamedwards]

Is Bank to Moorgate close enough for a travelator rather than a DLR extension, on the basis that a single tunnel is cheaper than two DLR sized tunnels? Could this be done directly from the Bank DLR platform as a third exit?
As an alternative, could any line to Moorgate run as a loop (as DLR trains can do sharp bends) so DLR trains could save time spent shunting to Lothbury, which would improve the train through put?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is Bank to Moorgate close enough for a travelator rather than a DLR extension, on the basis that a single tunnel is cheaper than two DLR sized tunnels? Could this be done directly from the Bank DLR platform as a third exit?
As an alternative, could any line to Moorgate run as a loop (as DLR trains can do sharp bends) so DLR trains could save time spent shunting to Lothbury, which would improve the train through put?

It’s quite a long way, around twice as far as Monument to Bank. It would be one hell of an interchange: Monument - Bank - Moorgate - Liverpool St. The only place to put the tunnel would be where the turnback siding is now, off line there are lots of basements and foundations, above is the Northern Line, below is getting very deep.

 

[ijmad]

Is Bank to Moorgate close enough for a travelator rather than a DLR extension, on the basis that a single tunnel is cheaper than two DLR sized tunnels? Could this be done directly from the Bank DLR platform as a third exit?
As an alternative, could any line to Moorgate run as a loop (as DLR trains can do sharp bends) so DLR trains could save time spent shunting to Lothbury, which would improve the train through put?

Don't think so.

However, consider this: once Crossrail is 'in' at Moorgate, it will remove pressure at Bank.

Northern line is already present at Moorgate.
To go to destinations on the H&C/District East of Aldgate, you'd already take the H&C east.

But:

For those going to most Central Line destinations, it will now make more sense to take Crossrail to Stratford or TCR.
So that leaves people trying to reach destinations on the bottom half of the Circle (which may still interchange at Bank/Monument).
Lastly, those for the DLR. Some of them may switch to Crossrail to Canary Wharf / Custom House.
Others will still be forced through Bank - which may explain why the Horizons study suggested building a deep level DLR extension to Moorgate/Barbican.

 

[Mojo]

The suggestion in the Horizon Study is that only the Widened Lines section leading in to Barbican and its former platforms would be used,

I’ve no idea what the “Horizon Study” is; but the new City sidings will go all the way from Farringdon to Moorgate.

You can see more information in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pointwork-at-farringdon-sub-surface-query.148397/#post-3023781

 

[ijmad]

I’ve no idea what the “Horizon Study” is; but the new City sidings will go all the way from Farringdon to Moorgate.

You can see more information in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pointwork-at-farringdon-sub-surface-query.148397/#post-3023781

Fair play. It was an entirely hypothetical set of ideas put forward by DLR Ltd in 2005, but is out of date now, evidently. Link's in my post if you want to read the rest. I believe more recent proposals see the DLR running up from Bank towards Euston and St Pancras, possibly to act as a people mover between the two for when HS2 opens.

 

[greyman42]

yes. The diagram shows this does it not?

Yes it does but I just wanted to make sure I was not interpreting it incorrectly. So I am right in thinking that it is quicker to leave through Monument than Bank from the DLR platforms?

 

[Mojo]

I would say that Crossrail 2 is too far east to have an effect on the Piccadilly line north of Finsbury Park. Possibly only relieving pressure at Wood Green / Turnpike Lane depending upon which option is chosen. I cannot see people changing at those stations to reach Central London as changing trains adds a time penalty probably not eqivalent to the time saved between those stations and Central London.

Post upgrade, the Piccadilly line is possibly quite suited to an extension because of the needs to maintain a high frequency on the west end branches but because there's only one branch on the east end you end up with an oversupply of trains to Arnos Grove or Cockfosters, even with the current service you still end up with more trains than you really need to Cockfosters, post-upgrade there would be even more trains.

Even at the moment, the Piccadilly line isn't /that/ busy at the moment which is probably why it's one of the last lines to be upgraded. Many of the stations have an alternative on the GN Inners and Crossrail 2 is likely to have a stop at Wood Green which is the busiest station east of Finsbury Park.

 

[rebmcr]

Yes it does but I just wanted to make sure I was not interpreting it incorrectly. So I am right in thinking that it is quicker to leave through Monument than Bank from the DLR platforms?

No, not really. There are still some lengthy passages to walk through, and they're busy at pretty much all times.

 

[southern442]

Perhaps this is just me, but I am really hesitant to do anything with the Northern City line. It's the last little run-down grotty bit of the system, now that the East London Line has been cleaned up, Thameslink has been completely transformed, and the A-Stock has all gone. This is by no means how the average commuter would think, but so many railway lines in London have lost their character due to upgrades (albeit severely needed ones). Once this line is cleaned up, what do we have left?

 

[Fred26]

A smart, clean system?

 

[387star]

It's a real timewarp down there

White masking tape covers the FCC logos which look to be applied over WAGN signage but the majority of the signage goes back to the 80s

The run down trains are a good match although the seating is actually quite comfortable fitted under the WAGN days I believe

 

[rebmcr]

Perhaps this is just me, but I am really hesitant to do anything with the Northern City line. It's the last little run-down grotty bit of the system, now that the East London Line has been cleaned up, Thameslink has been completely transformed, and the A-Stock has all gone. This is by no means how the average commuter would think, but so many railway lines in London have lost their character due to upgrades (albeit severely needed ones). Once this line is cleaned up, what do we have left?

The Bakerloo line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps this is just me, but I am really hesitant to do anything with the Northern City line. It's the last little run-down grotty bit of the system, now that the East London Line has been cleaned up, Thameslink has been completely transformed, and the A-Stock has all gone. This is by no means how the average commuter would think, but so many railway lines in London have lost their character due to upgrades (albeit severely needed ones). Once this line is cleaned up, what do we have left?

A decent public transport system rather than a museum piece?

 

[ijmad]

I get really irked by the rail enthusiast position that old, dirty trains and ramshackle stations are wonderful and new trains and technology destroy character.

Keep your character for your weekend heritage railways.

The majority of people living in London and other cities want a functional, high capacity transport system that works consistently enough to get them to work and back with some slim chance of a seat from time to time.

 

[387star]

Do TFL manage these stations? Any reason why they have been seemingly left untouched for decades?

 

[AndyNLondon]

Perhaps this is just me, but I am really hesitant to do anything with the Northern City line. It's the last little run-down grotty bit of the system, now that the East London Line has been cleaned up, Thameslink has been completely transformed, and the A-Stock has all gone. This is by no means how the average commuter would think, but so many railway lines in London have lost their character due to upgrades (albeit severely needed ones). Once this line is cleaned up, what do we have left?

By all means keep the Network SouthEast branding - that's pretty much a historic feature these days. But suggesting that it should be deliberately kept grotty & run-down as a way of giving it "character" is just ridiculous - route maps that are half-illegible because of being covered in grime, advertising posters that haven't been changed in years (to the point that they're almost as grime-covered as the maps), trains that have had big chunks of their paint scrubbed off by graffiti removal, etc are not "character", they're neglect. I suspect the line will always have a distinctive feel, by virtue of being a mainline route in deep tube tunnels, but that's no reason for it to not be properly looked after.

 

[cle]

It seems there is an instinct among people at the moment that everything must be a crossrail! but it's never likely to happen for Moorgate given all the constraints discussed. Moorgate is becoming a decently useful interchange, it will have Crossrail and the SSL and the Northern line, and if you count them up it's on a par with Farringdon in terms of total trains per hour. There's no reason why it doesn't make sense as a terminus. It may even get a DLR extension at some future point, or perhaps some other clever re-use of the widened lines.

So rather than a ludicrously expensive southern extension, spend more sensible money renovating Moorgate and Finsbury Park; modernise Essex Road and Drayton Park; fit ETCS/ERTMS and build platforms at Stevenage so more services can run that far via Hertford North (and maybe even as far as Cambridge?), and rationalise the timetable so services are faster, more segregated and more self-contained, thus more attractive for commuters in to London.

Oh, and give it to London Overground to run.

Completely agree. The most reliable railway is the most simple railway. I think I wrote this elsewhere, but pick a branch (either Hertford/Stevenage or Welwyn) - and only run that one to Moorgate, and the other to Kings Cross. Every day. And very frequently - possibly with skip stopping or semi-fast patterns in the peaks to run more.

With the new lines, Harringay/Hornsey calling patterns and split at Alexandra Palace, go with the best fit for reliability and repetition, and let people change accordingly.

Market it as a tube line/LO line. I think the Hertford route is the one. Whereas the Welwyn route may end up being further intertwined with the slower Cambridge services/TL - to enable higher peak frequency.

 

[PeterY]

I took a ride down from Finsbury Park to Moorgate last week. In my head and after reading all the posts, I've nick named it "The Grime Line"

 

[southern442]

I get really irked by the rail enthusiast position that old, dirty trains and ramshackle stations are wonderful and new trains and technology destroy character.

Keep your character for your weekend heritage railways.

The majority of people living in London and other cities want a functional, high capacity transport system that works consistently enough to get them to work and back with some slim chance of a seat from time to time.

I do very much sympathise with this and I realise I am in the minority with my viewpoint. Might I just say that heritage railways just aren't the same as the real deal, for various reasons that I don't have to explain.

There is no reason, however, why something shabby and old cannot perform well as a railway service. I mean, bar the signalling, it has served its purpose fairly well up until now. Although again there is no reason why if you upgrade the service or trains you shouldn't upgrade the railway line.

 

[southern442]

The most reliable railway is the most simple railway.

With the possible exception of the Sutton Loop, but that is a subject for another thread perhaps!

 

[ijmad]

I do very much sympathise with this and I realise I am in the minority with my viewpoint. Might I just say that heritage railways just aren't the same as the real deal, for various reasons that I don't have to explain.

There is no reason, however, why something shabby and old cannot perform well as a railway service. I mean, bar the signalling, it has served its purpose fairly well up until now. Although again there is no reason why if you upgrade the service or trains you shouldn't upgrade the railway line.

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't like arriving for work needing a brush and a shower... let alone the health implications of breathing that stuff in on a daily basis. Soot and particulates are not good for us.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I have always found the line strange.

Stations: this is the 4th franchise since privatisation. Yet NSE remains. GTR haven’t really removed and FCC branding (what little exists) just the name.

Has the rail franchise any power to do anything to the station or is it old TFL?

Trains: I don’t think they are as bad as people make out just for their age. They are going so I think GTR now only replaces certain parts when they break rather than does preventative maintenance on them. Why would the when the trains have less than 1 year left. Look at the paint work to see how much they are cared for. The trains will get the minimum required by the ROSCO now.

 

[Fred26]

As far as the stations go, GTR are responsible for maintaining all of them, however the amount they are responsible is quite small at Highbury and Old Street and tiny at Moorgate. Those stations are all LU stations where GTR have their own platforms. On those platforms what happens is up to GTR/NWR. Outside of those platforms/passageways, LU are in charge.
Essex Road and Drayton Park are entirely GTR.

 

[RingingEars66]

The Crossrail project should have been scoped to include the tunnel work to expand Moorgate GNE and provide at least one more platform, or linking it to whatever is left of the original TL platforms.

I travelled on it for the first time today, I was amazed to see the Network SE signage in the platforms! It shocks me that this wasn't incorporated into Crossrail, as Crossrail has a shaft at Moorgate!
I think it suffers from limited usage, due to it's dead-end nature. If it had been scoped into Crossrail, there could have been an island platform at Moorgate, a linkup before Liverpool St or even a regular junction in the tunnel. 717 units could have run in, changed back to overhead AC at Liverpool St, run out to Abbey Wood, back on the DC and then onto a connection with CTRL. It amazes me that it's currently crippled as it runs to a dead stop at Moorgate! It's obvious that it's damaging when you look at the state of the stations. They can't justify the upgrade.

In a perfect world, I'd link it with Crossrail by means of parallel platform at Liverpool St (including an actual junction, even if not used (the railway doesn't like this kind of forward planning)), get it under the Thames and link it with the Southern Region with a Surrey Quays, Erith to Ebbsfleet connection. Without it, it's a wasted opportunity.

 

[Fred26]

I travelled on it for the first time today, I was amazed to see the Network SE signage in the platforms! It shocks me that this wasn't incorporated into Crossrail, as Crossrail has a shaft at Moorgate!
I think it suffers from limited usage, due to it's dead-end nature. If it had been scoped into Crossrail, there could have been an island platform at Moorgate, a linkup before Liverpool St or even a regular junction in the tunnel. 717 units could have run in, changed back to overhead AC at Liverpool St, run out to Abbey Wood, back on the DC and then onto a connection with CTRL. It amazes me that it's currently crippled as it runs to a dead stop at Moorgate! It's obvious that it's damaging when you look at the state of the stations. They can't justify the upgrade.

In a perfect world, I'd link it with Crossrail by means of parallel platform at Liverpool St (including an actual junction, even if not used (the railway doesn't like this kind of forward planning)), get it under the Thames and link it with the Southern Region with a Surrey Quays, Erith to Ebbsfleet connection. Without it, it's a wasted opportunity.

Erm, the NCL is very busy, 5 days out of 7, and if the service were better could be quite busy at the weekend too. It's not a backwater - upgrade work is completely justifiable.

 

[Hadders]

I think it suffers from limited usage

Go back in the rush hour and you'll take a different view!

 

[anthony263]

I have seen trains busy even off peak on this line. I think the state of the 313s hasn't helped matters but then again they have been good workhorses for the route now the 717s should help with their extra capacity. The route certainly can justify upgrades and improved services especially evenings and weekends should encourage more usage.