Northern: Change of Ticket Type Excess

[Starmill]

I recently travelled from a station in Greater Manchester to Manchester Piccadilly between 1600 and 1830 on a weekday. The ticket office at my origin was closed, and I held an Off-Peak Day Single. I therefore boarded the train. The guard came to check tickets, he immediately caught sight of it in my hand saying 'Oh dear this is a peak train. You can't use this ticket. You'll have to pay the difference.' I nodded and passed him the ticket saying yeah that's fine it's not much. The CDS was £1.25 and the SDS £1.90. The guard took my card and swiped it. I causally mentioned that it was very unusual to apply such restrictions to contra-peak journeys. He said it had been like that since September and 'That's just the way it is'. He passed me a coupon and asked me to sign it, which took me a little by surprise but I did so. I then received a receipt and two excess coupons, it says 'X/S Anytime Day' and there's an out and return portion. The price was £1.15. The excess I'd been expecting was £0.65. Fares with a railcard. I called back to the guard 'Oh sorry I think you've done it as a return?' he was already serving the next person, but said 'no, that's right'. I queried 'Sorry, I only had a single to Manchester? I think you've made a mistake?'. It was apparent the guard was sure this wasn't the case. 'it's all from head office and nothing to do with me. These are the new fares and this is how we've been told to do it.' I asked if that means I could come back now or not, as I hadn't planned on making a return journey. The guard sort of motioned 'I don't know', while hastily completing the next transaction, before walking quickly back past me, the carriage door slamming behind him.

I thought this a curious is turn of events, so I'd like to know if this is correct. Can anyone say if he could have excessed my ticket from a CDS to an SDS? I didn't realise it was possible / permitted to excess a CDS to an SDR. Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Yes, a CDS can be excessed to either an SDS or an SDR, depending on the passenger's requirements.

Single to return is a legitimate excess.

 

[Merseysider]

Probably just a simple mistake, and if you're talking about Mauldeth Road - Man, he wouldn't have had time to go back, non-issue the excess (if that's even possible) and redo it so best not to take his hastiness as rudeness.

Write in for a refund of the 50p if you're so inclined (I wouldn't). But Northern are notoriously bad at doing excess tickets correctly and it may prompt an improvement in standards

 

[Starmill]

Sorry, got the numbers wrong. SDS is £1.65, SDR £2.40. I was excessed to the latter it seems, rather than the former. Is there a legitimate reason why the guard might insist that I excess to a return when I said I only wanted a single, and had already purchased a single? He was quite clear that was 'the rules'. The ref number is '11111' which doesn't appear to be the ticket number.

 

[bb21]

I can understand the ticket number thing. If they had no training on what each little bit of the new style layout means, it may not be so easy to spot the ticket number.

As to the single/return issue, he probably just misunderstood you and then didn't really have time to redo it as Jake said. I'm sure Northern will give you the 75p (I make it) back if you complain. I wouldn't bother unless it is purely out of principle if I were you.

 

[Starmill]

No, I was clear he'd excessed me to a return when I was only making a single journey. The guard said that is the way it is supposed to be done, i.e. Excess to the SDS was not available. Is this an internal Northern policy? Yet another instance of mis-selling as a result of the evening peak restrictions?

 

[bb21]

I am not aware of such a policy.

He was probably saying that because he didn't have time to redo it and he did not want to get into a long argument, ie. he was fobbing you off. If he admitted that he was wrong, he will have to spend time sorting it out. So this goes back to the point that if you really want to get that 75p back as a matter of principle, then complain to Northern. If not, then it's easier to just let it drop tbh.

 

[Hadders]

For all their faults I doubt this is Northern policy.

It seems to me that the guard made a mistake and rather than sort it out, fobbed you off by saying it was policy.

 

[323235]

Probably just a simple mistake, and if you're talking about Mauldeth Road - Man, he wouldn't have had time to go back, non-issue the excess (if that's even possible) and redo it so best not to take his hastiness as rudeness.

Write in for a refund of the 50p if you're so inclined (I wouldn't). But Northern are notoriously bad at doing excess tickets correctly and it may prompt an improvement in standards

I'm afraid I would have to disagree on that point, some of them can be quite rude if you question them on something they have done wrong and they either a) believe they're right or want to maintain power or authority b) know they don't know but don't want to admit it

I've had the odd fob off here and there and it can be quite frustrating

 

[Merseysider]

I'm afraid I would have to disagree on that point, some of them can be quite rude if you question them on something they have done wrong and they either a) believe they're right or want to maintain power or authority b) know they don't know but don't want to admit it

I've had the odd fob off here and there and it can be quite frustrating

You disagree that standards might improve or that the guard wasn't being rude?

It's quite possible he was being impolite to starmill, perhaps as a result of perceivedly being told how to do his job. But by and far most of my problems with Northern staff have been at a booking office.

If the complaint is a matter of principle then by all means write in, you may even get a free Northern voucher for your trouble.

 

[bb21]

If the complaint is a matter of principle then by all means write in, you may even get a free Northern voucher for your trouble.

Oh, god. Don't mention that. I believe starmill is fed up with receiving them.

 

[Merseysider]

Oh, god. Don't mention that. I believe starmill is fed up with receiving them.

Could always flog it on eBay for a tenner

 

[Starmill]

I'm confused. JakeF and bb21 suggest the guard knew a mistake had been made, and ran off rather than sort it out? Surely this would make him much more dishonest than I'd thought. No, the guard was adamant there was no mistake. Time shouldn't be a factor either if there were, because in that case the guard could have apologised, explained he didn't have much time and invited me to sort it out on the platform.

Furthermore, talk of it being an 'insignificant' or 'not worth bothering with' sum is perplexing. I'm sure we know that if I were to deprive Northern of £0.75 I would be swiftly prosecuted, or offered an £80 out of court settlement if I were lucky. Good to know there's parity, fairness and balance in the industry.

 

[bb21]

I'm confused. JakeF and bb21 suggest the guard knew a mistake had been made, and ran off rather than sort it out? Surely this would make him much more dishonest than I'd thought. No, the guard was adamant there was no mistake. Time shouldn't be a factor either if there were, because in that case the guard could have apologised, explained he didn't have much time and invited me to sort it out on the platform.

We can only offer "possible" explanations. Exactly what was going on in the guard's head only he will know. There may indeed be local instructions at his depot instructing staff to always excess to returns but I highly doubt it. He may have misunderstood the excess procedures. Time can very much be a factor as I don't think all guards would be happy to spend time dealing with a passenger on the platform at the end of a journey, especially one who has just picked faults with him. Some may, some may not. He may even have other matters that he considered to be more important such as prepping the train for the next journey if it were a short turnaround.

We will never know, but there is a way you can sort out this problem of overpayment, complain to Northern.

Furthermore, talk of it being an 'insignificant' or 'not worth bothering with' sum is perplexing. I'm sure we know that if I were to deprive Northern of £0.75 I would be swiftly prosecuted, or offered an £80 out of court settlement if I were lucky. Good to know there's parity, fairness and balance in the industry.

But that is the problem, there is no parity.

If you are that bothered by it, complain. No one is trying to stop you. You may consider it worthwhile. For me, 75p is not worth my time complaining to them about but money may not always be the sticking point. You may consider it worthwhile complaining if it stops him incorrectly charging people in the future. Only you can make that call.

 

[Starmill]

Time can very much be a factor as I don't think all guards would be happy to spend time dealing with a passenger on the platform at the end of a journey, especially one who has just picked faults with him. Some may, some may not. He may even have other matters that he considered to be more important such as prepping the train for the next journey if it were a short turnaround.

We will never know, but there is a way you can sort out this problem of overpayment, complain to Northern.

I agree with everything you say, of course, except this. If a knowing mistake had been made it should have been corrected. Other demands on the guard's time are hardly the fault of the customer. As to "picking fault" there should be trust in retailing. Either the guard charged me more in error, or because he thought it could be gotten away with. Would you not question this yourself?

 

[bb21]

I agree with everything you say, of course, except this. If a knowing mistake had been made it should have been corrected. Other demands on the guard's time are hardly the fault of the customer. As to "picking fault" there should be trust in retailing. Either the guard charged me more in error, or because he thought it could be gotten away with. Would you not question this yourself?

In theory, yes, yes, and yes, but realistically speaking ...

If this were at the ticket office, where the main responsibility for staff is revenue, then I totally agree, but a guard's primary responsibility is not revenue, and we do not live in a perfect world.

That's why customer service departments exist.

 

[Starmill]

That's why customer service departments exist.

Why of course you are again correct. And we all know how excellent they are at resolving these things.

 

[bb21]

Yes, but that is a separate issue.

 

[185143]

That's why customer service departments exist.

Why of course you are again correct. And we all know how excellent they are at resolving these things.

I've been fobbed off by customer relations several times now! NRCOC doesn't apply to rover tickets so no compensation is payable! Luckily for me, passenger focus also disagreed that was the case and northern did eventually pay up.